Is Politics Alright To Talk About Here?

Yeah this is a very good question.

“Why european racism is mostly pointing people coming from north africa today.”

First, we must remember, that having one particulary hated foreign community is not new. From the end of the 19th century till the holocaust, the jews were hated in most of europeans countries. In switzerland in the meedle of the 20th, it was pretty common to see bar, shops, or else, with writtings saying “forbidden to portuguese and italian people” etc… etc…

I don’t know if the reasons back then are the same today. But one of the biggest reason today about why a lot of europeans hate the “muslim community” (and it doesn’t mean anything, because an Iranian has as much in common with an Algerian than a French has in common with a Russian.) is because of the massive US oriented propaganda, and because many local politician accuse them on electoral purpose.

Today in france, we have people writting book openly racists against “arabs”, in the name of “freedom of speech”, with the complete backing of ruling politicians.
But in the same time, we have writters or humorist, arrested, judged, beaten up by milicians, for criticizing Israel or the USA.

The main reason for all this racism, is the constant brainwashing the average citizen is exposed to when watching the tv, or reading newspapers, where everyday they read things like “Iran is gonna nuke us”, “another young french ARAB boy raped a WHITE teenager”, “once again riots in french ghettos, caused by young muslim”, “turks may enter in the EU and will steal our jobs” etc… etc…

Poorly educated people + high rate of unemployment + totalitarist state hidden behind “democracy” + propaganda by the whole press/media industry + 2008 = 1938 revival.

We’re gloryfiying once again nation pride, we say that “colonialism was a good thing”, we blame another culture for all of our problem, we give power to people who don’t respect the basic rules of democracies.

Europe will never learn.

Politics and socialism have no conclusions, only consequences. ;)

Yeah, I have been noticing that the level of unemployment in any area, be it Europe or the United States, has a profound effect on the level of demonization of “other” cultures. For example, Michigan, the state in which I live, has one of the worst unemployment rates in the entire country. We also have an extremely dense population of Arabs and other Middle-Easterners as well as a very large population of African Americans and Latin Americans (legal or not). Recently, there has been legislation passed in our state that bans practices that tried to make conditions even for lower-income (another word for minority) students getting admitted in state-run colleges and universities and I’ve noticed a growing number of hate speech even among some student organizations at the university I attend.

If only race was not ever invented.

Haha, I like the deep analysis you bring to the table :)

Plenty of misanthropic utterings going around. Remember, however sick and fed up we might be with certain politicians [fill in name], politics is still important, and worth discussing - but to be really constructive, it requires the courage to take a discussion with someone you disagree with.

We can pad each other’s back for time and eternity, basically we just confirm that we have - roughly - similar opinions. That’s why I mentioned that I found it strange that I never meet anyone supporting opposite views of my own (such as members of the aforementioned Danish Peoples Party)

Are there really no people on this board who feel that immigrants are a threat to our society? That islam is incompatible with a democratic political system?
I think so, and I think they should voice their opinion as well! Or is this discussion more of the gentleman’s club variety?

100% agreed.

the feeling is seldom mutual in Dutch politics, however… it’s a stage for polarisation…

Yeah, I really want to hear what some of the other views as well. You can’t learn much without some resistance, kind of like building muscle mass, you need resistance.

no, because its a fallacy perpetuated by scaremongers and the uneducated scared of any type of change. all nations are built on immigrants and islam is a huge religion that brings meaning to the lifes of millions.

the only potential problems are the fundamentalists - be they religious (bush admin, taliban etc) or patriots (bnp, nazi youth) the governments let the media scare people into closed little hate patterns as it diverts attention from the governments other failings - and keeps people divided.

if you were in an unpopular rule (ie bush/blair) would you like the poplace to be united as one against you - or all fighting amongst themselves?

It’s obvious, as soon as the shit goes down the hill people need someone to blame, “foreigners” have always been the easiest to pick on (because they are not well “organized” and can’t defend themselves that easily) and because there are “idiots” in any however-defined group you can easily pick out the bad examples and just point on them.

“Crime commited by immigrants” is the latest buzz here in germany, some right-winged politicians and media are currently going hand in hand down that road, not actually being able to distinct between “immigrants” and “criminals” and not being impressed by other experts who try to analyze statistics properly and come to the conclusion that crime has actually become less (but overall more violent) and the share of crime committed by immigrants has actually lessened over the years.
But they have their horrible singular examples and make a campaign out of it.

But that said I am really on par with BotB here, if people decide to come to a different country and want to live there they should definately try to respect the country and the laws and fit in to a certain degree.

This does not mean giving up their culture or something, but a few examples that cross my mind :

An example on the good side is the (amazingly big) russian community in my hometown, it happens quite often that you meet someone from a russian family here and something that often struck me is this “near-dogma” they have about not speaking russian while being in a public place. I wouldn’t have a problem with that, but several russians told me that they don’t want other people to feel insecure because of a group sitting in a bus chatting in russian and laughing. That (and countless invitations to all kinds of events, including religious ones) makes me feel like they actually “integrate” without loosing anything.

An the other side :

The police lately closed some kind of “sweatshop” in my town where a dozen of vietnamese women were working 12-14 hours per day with next to no pay. The thing is that it was actually not really “illegal” because those women were all somehow related to the owners of the business (wife, daughter, niece, cousin etc.) but it was quite obvious what was going on there and that kind of (women-) slavery is something that simply shouldn’t happen anywhere on the world, apart from the fact that is plainly forbidden here in germany.

Also I do have a problem with this (very small) group of islamic people coming here and having the goal to turn this country into an islamic state or trying to create some kind of islamic paralell-world, including stuff like forced marriage (or generally a horrible way of treating the females in their social group) which leads to problems like female schoolteachers (90% of them are female here) who are confronted with 14-year old immigrant-boys that are actually completely confident that they as “soon-to-be-man” are higher on the social ladder than a grown-up women.
But that is actually a problem Germany made itself, for years they kinda gehtto-ed all immigrants making it actually hard for them to really grow into the country.

And on a larger scale I do have a problem with this very radical part of the islamic world. This has alot to do with the fact that I consider myself being a freethinker and actually oppose religion as such (no matter what form) but although “conversion” is a major goal of christianity aswell it is obvious that there is actually a more violent and agressive force within the islamic world pursuing this goal/concept. “Death to all infidels” or some guy running an arabic country that seems to be willing to use the h-bomb on other countries as soon as he actually has it just give me the chills, apart from alot of other (in my freethinking and humanist view) wrong concepts.

And about the US, a quote from george carlin just came to mind who said something like: “Whenever somethings wrong in the US someone high up has this great idea : “Let’s bomb someone !” In the 60s and 70s we bombed yellow people, now whenever something is wrong we just bomb brown people.”
Made me chuckle.

It’s obvious, as soon as the shit goes down the hill people need someone to blame, “foreigners” have always been the easiest to pick on (because they are not well “organized” and can’t defend themselves that easily) and because there are “idiots” in any however-defined group you can easily pick out the bad examples and just point on them.

“Crime commited by immigrants” is the latest buzz here in germany, some right-winged politicians and media are currently going hand in hand down that road, not actually being able to distinct between “immigrants” and “criminals” and not being impressed by other experts who try to analyze statistics properly and come to the conclusion that crime has actually become less (but overall more violent) and the share of crime committed by immigrants has actually lessened over the years.
But they have their horrible singular examples and make a campaign out of it.

But that said I am really on par with BotB here, if people decide to come to a different country and want to live there they should definately try to respect the country and the laws and fit in to a certain degree.

This does not mean giving up their culture or something, but a few examples that cross my mind :

An example on the good side is the (amazingly big) russian community in my hometown, it happens quite often that you meet someone from a russian family here and something that often struck me is this “near-dogma” they have about not speaking russian while being in a public place. I wouldn’t have a problem with that, but several russians told me that they don’t want other people to feel insecure because of a group sitting in a bus chatting in russian and laughing. That (and countless invitations to all kinds of events, including religious ones) makes me feel like they actually “integrate” without loosing anything.

An the other side :

The police lately closed some kind of “sweatshop” in my town where a dozen of vietnamese women were working 12-14 hours per day with next to no pay. The thing is that it was actually not really “illegal” because those women were all somehow related to the owners of the business (wife, daughter, niece, cousin etc.) but it was quite obvious what was going on there and that kind of (women-) slavery is something that simply shouldn’t happen anywhere on the world, apart from the fact that is plainly forbidden here in germany.

Also I do have a problem with this (very small) group of islamic people coming here and having the goal to turn this country into an islamic state or trying to create some kind of islamic paralell-world, including stuff like forced marriage (or generally a horrible way of treating the females in their social group) which leads to problems like female schoolteachers (90% of them are female here) who are confronted with 14-year old immigrant-boys that are actually completely confident that they as “soon-to-be-man” are higher on the social ladder than a grown-up women.
But that is actually a problem Germany made itself, for years they kinda gehtto-ed all immigrants making it actually hard for them to really grow into the country.

And on a larger scale I do have a problem with this very radical part of the islamic world. This has alot to do with the fact that I consider myself being a freethinker and actually oppose religion as such (no matter what form) but although “conversion” is a major goal of christianity aswell it is obvious that there is actually a more violent and agressive force within the islamic world pursuing this goal/concept. “Death to all infidels” or some guy running an arabic country that seems to be willing to use the h-bomb on other countries as soon as he actually has it just give me the chills, apart from alot of other (in my freethinking and humanist view) wrong concepts.

And about the US, a quote from george carlin just came to mind who said something like: “Whenever somethings wrong in the US someone high up has this great idea : “Let’s bomb someone !” In the 60s and 70s we bombed yellow people, now whenever something is wrong we just bomb brown people.”
Made me chuckle.

Exactly, I never had problem to discuss with any kind of political movment, nor with neo liberal, nor with extreme right winged white supremacists.

You see, you won’t ear “muslims” opinions for two main reason, the same main reasons that made the “islam can’t fit democracy” a false argument:

  1. “Muslim” people aren’t that many, in fact they are a minority, and a lot of them aren’t muslim anymore.
  2. Most of people who talk about Qur’an have no idea about it, have never read it, and by extend, don’t know anything about the “arabic world” or the “arabic” society.

Why would they anwser to things that don’t make sens? Why would an immigrant from algeria or a turk feel concerned about the fantasized vision that europe could turn into a “Islamic Republic” on the model of Iran, when an Algerian or a Turk has as much in common with an Iranian as a Spanish has in common with a Russian ?

This is once again a reflex of occidental culture to think that only us, only our model of society, only our religion can fit democracy, only our model is good and right and people must fit within it, and still, not knowing anything about other cultures.

Also why would they give up entirly their culture if they live in our countries? Especially when we park them into ghettos so “we don’t have to mix with them”? What’s so pissing about a teenage girl wearing a scarf at school? 13 y/o girls dressed up like sluts are culturaly superior? Also for the forced marriage exemple, that’s another fantasy, 99% of muslim are moderate, like 99% christians are. But of course, you can check the 1% left, spam it daily on tv and make people believing that this 1% is the standard for this religion.

I’ve lived long enough in french ghetto to tell you that those people have really many others priorities in their life (finding a decent job, trying to offer good education for their children, surviving,…) than turning Europe into Muslimland.

But is actually anyone here who has any idea about the islam or arab nations and such ? I agree that it might be quite stupid to have some white europeans go on about this without having someone to confirm/deny some of the stuff …

Like this thing that the Koran (that’s how is written in my Country) actually bans music/declares it as the work of the devil. (Just to make sure : I don’t take this seriously, it’s the same as with the bible : If you want to kill a bunch of schoolchildren, set some houses on fire and rob some old people, all in the same night, and need a justification you can quite probably find a two-liner in the bible that tells you this is god’s will.)

but still…

a totaly agree with you lunat about France situation but there is also an historical part i thing.

In the 70’s there have been lots of political mouvement and stuff but because of lack of organisation and because of the influence of the communist party (who was a bunch of bureaucrat and stupids). So this movement haven’t win (68 biggest strike in industrialized country and near no result just some money…)
In the 80’s lots of movement for the suburb but the reformist parti socialiste control it with some human right stupidity like" Touche pas à mon pote"

On the other hand the counter-revolution from the right wing start to come from USA With Nixon and after that in England with Tatcher… and now in france with Sarkozy… It’s not exactly fascism like in the past but in kind a neo fascism based on destruction of social state, rascism, fight against right

I think a big problem in france is the lack of link between the oldshcool left wing (marxism anarchism) and the nu suburb mouvement (indigène de la republique, MIB)… without unity we can fight but i really understant that the nu suburd organization have actually good point against the oldschool…
PS sorry for my english…

Oh and btw, what just came to my mind : You also have to realize that the christian church is actually in some kind of retreat here in europe … over the past decades they lost alot of members and influence, in germany they started selling property, you can now actually buy an old church to live in (imagine that !), their influence on political parties has declined alot and most of the members are not blind followers anymore. This does not mean that they will be gone soon, but there is a huge decline. As I heard the church is more and more concentrating on latin-america and africa because they have really devoted followers there and their money has much more effect.

So it is probably also an opportunity for them to shoot against the islam and there is actually some kind of new “christian fundamental”-movement popping up here, opposing immigrants and the islam on a religious level.

Lets just all move to kazakhstan, tis nice!

Yeah, I have noticed the same trends here in the US. Recently, there has been unemployment issues, credit problems, and a constant depletion of blue collar (manufacturing) jobs. Many people turn to Mexican and Latin American immigrants as the problem when it is almost entirely the fault of predatory creditors and shitty policies by our government.

I also have the same problem with immigrants who outwardly try to change the culture or practices of their host nation.

Haha, that’s funny about churches being sold in Europe. I wish that was the case here. So many people view themselves as a “good christian” but act nothing like it.

Also, when I was in a metal band, we played in a couple churches!! :yeah:

i am a tired and drunk turk. i live 9 months in new york and 3 in istanbul.

i will reply as soon as i am not too drunk ;)