@ffx
Yes, of course you can create drums with a synth. Self-explanatory. I know how to do for example a “808 kick” from scratch, and indeed you’ll get a pretty similar sound. But it’s not equal to the original and it takes some time. I’ll always prefer samples in terms of druns, I’m up for using a drum machine, too, but even then I would prefer samples. It’s more convenient and of course faster. And the sound is more “original”, like the hardware.
I still use this one now and then, but it’s not the right one for this competition. Lazerbass is from NI, so it needs the Kontakt player, righ? The Kontakt player is an exclusion criteria, isn’t it? Spitfire Labs seem to have some additional stuff, but not “the one and only” synth for a competition.
But it can be fun and I also do not agree here, your very own self-made synthetic drums usually sound better even than standard drum samples, because you can finetune every little detail to match your song context and you also can add little variation, so it doesn’t sound as statically as a sample. Also the most common drum samples usually were synthesized or layered by someone.
You guys do realize that you can do perfectly capable drums with just Renoise itself? Finetune the envelopes as much as you want, layer up to 12 samples per drum, parallel, multiband and mid-side processing, round robins, separate modulations per sample, generative/probabilistic modulations etc… Therefore I don’t think the capability of a given synth to do drum synthesis is a very good inclusion/exclusion criterion.
And Renoise can also act as a very functional subtractive and basic additive synth too with the old ringmod trick, not to mention just loading up some single cycle waveforms and starting from there. Even FM (to an extent) and granular synthesis are totally possible with just Renoise itself, as has been recently established. So if we’re going for the one synth thingy, I see no real value in just picking some basic synth VST which doesn’t add anything to what Renoise can already do. Why not just do it in Renoise then? Probably would even be a lot cheaper in terms of CPU load that way, and would certainly be better suited for a Renoise competition.
I think the VST would serve its purpose much better if we would pick some really unique VST that would actually add something to the compo - vs just doubling the functionalities that Renoise already has. Just my 2 cents for what they’re worth.
Sure, you can do nice drums with the Renoise synthesis, many people did here. But in the end of the day, Renoise synthesis is wonky regarding timing and imprecise, so the result will be always kind of random. Not so with a modern synth engine like Vital provides, having sample accuracy and an really easy ux.
Also Renoise synthesis is done several times , vital not so much yet. Well my 2 cents at least…
I know there are some issues with imprecision in the ahdsr, but what else are you referring to here? I use sample based synthesis in renoise almost exclusively, and have gotten multiple comments on performances noting how tight and precise, clean and consistent the music feels, especially in comparison to vst heavy productions. All that’s anecdotal, but it’s interesting to me how I’ve gotten that comment multiple times. I’d be curious to know what else is wonky besides that device, thanks
Well put! I love doing things entirely in renoise as it’s just so damn cpu efficient and allows me to make bigger projects, and have the control potential of mixing xrns’s live when performing instead of using stems or renders
It doesn’t make sense (to me) to require the use of a vst in a renoise compo unless it was a competition whose point was to make everything through VST synthesis. Mutant cats is winning, so in all likelihood people can use whatever they want, and extra points will be available for xrns and all native devices, since this is a renoise-centric compo, and that can potentially push the bounaries and add more to what renoise is perceived as being capable of by the average joe.
What’s become clear to me through this thread, though, is that it might be time (soon, like 2023) to revive some more composition challenges outside of MBC, I think it’d be hella fun to do some one-synth VST based challenges, and various other challenges (speed comp, one-sample, acoustic… renoise unplugged?, renoise sings, etc) as it seems like there’s interest enough interest in the community here.
Think I’m gonna skip out on weeklybeats next year, so I’ll have more time to organize challenges, and we’ll see if people are interested
Literally any meta signal in Renoise is wonky in time domain, it depends on playback speed and even the LPB and song settings, AFAIK. It’s the whole concept of Renoise, it is old. Yes, you nicely adapted to that in your nice sounding songs and I also did not say that you can’t have really good results with Renoise synthesis. I only saying, using a scalpel instead a pretty raw screwdriver might lead into more interesting results and maybe even higher quality. And also opens up more possiblities. Yes, you can’t do what you are used to and have to relearn a lot of stuff, again.
Well, there are known limitations in mod envelopes and all modulation speeds. It’s not audio rate in any case (maybe in the future… ), but it’s not “imprecise” either. They are extremely precise and completely predictable AFAIK, just limited in their own way (and somewhat misleading in the mod envelopes case, because the interface can show you things that are not actually happening to your audio). So it’s not “wonky”, it just doesn’t work in audio rate. I’m not aware of any real “imprecision” and have tested multiple setups with complete minus infinity dB results in null tests. If there is a way to show an imprecision in Renoise in time domain that makes complete null impossible, I’d be really interested in expanding my knowledge! So please do share or link to some resources!
EDIT : took out some misinformation I wrote before checking the facts.
You can try it with drum pitch envelopes. Then it will be very clear very soon. It’s somehow random then. You might be lucky to find a good setting, but it is surely not WYSIWYG. No, I won’t now come up with a proof that timing of envs and meta is wonky in Renoise. I just was saying that using Vital might be a lot of fun, because it is a) precise AF and b) the UX is very nice and easy, drag’n’drop, WYSIWYG
It is WYSIWYG if you are aware of the fundamental limitations. If you unknowingly push past those, the situation changes.
But I agree about vital, not because it’s more “precise”, but because it would actually add certain synthesis capabilities not available in Renoise natively.
EDIT : just checked, I remembered wrong about the TPL thing. The new mod rate, at least for the ADHSR is according to taktik precisely 256 times per beat. So I guess, you could argue it’s “wonky” in a way, but certainly not imprecise or anyhow unpredictable. The more you know.
Sorry, this is not about to be on solid ground, but I really think that you are wrong here. Simply change the speed of your song after you setup a fast pitch envelope (not synced to tempo). The sound will immediately change quite a lot. So this is not WYSIWYG at all. As I wrote, maybe you found your way to have nice results with these limitations, but it would be interesting maybe esp. for a Renoise synthesis geek like you to really try Vital in comparison.
Here is an idea.Why not extend the time period of the MBC this year like 2 months but make 2 songs,one sample based using only Renoise devices and one using anything we want sequenced in Renoise of course.We could even have 2 different subjects one for cats and one for whatever each one of us want then we can all be happy
You are correct, that’s exactly how it works. It depends on your BPM, since it is 256 times per beat. So kinda “wonky” and unintuitive, yes, but completely predictable and perfectly precise. So if you know it’s limitations and don’t push past those, it is exactly WYSIWYG.
Check the above thread for more info. I also learned a thing here and shouldn’t have written anything before checking the facts.
You can work around this problem by rendering your drums to samples, and therefore removing any changes to the envelope timing when changing the tempo.
The fact is that a sample accurate, tempo independant envelope will give you more predictable results. As you referred in your link, Renoise smoothes out any tiny details with a simple exponential interpolation. Hence it sounds different on different speeds. This might not be so relevant for volume changes (besides causing aliasing), but it is very audible on pitch changes, and also cutoff (esp with high resonance).
AFAICT the AHDSR envelope is still completely deterministic, so you are wrong by definition in saying that sample accurate, tempo independent envelope would give more predictable results. The predictability is exactly equal, albeit the latter case would obviously be a much better choice for various reasons. But I’m splitting hairs here, and completely irrelevant ones at that . In the end, I agree with you: the envelopes could be better, and are in any synth that does audio rate modulation. But we’re getting a bit off-topic here…
Of course somebody recorded the hardware and created the drum samples, but that’s it. I wouldn’t want “variation” on a kick drum and you can finetune a sample, too. “Variation” is the main reason for using VSTs when it comes to instruments which can make melodies (everything but the drums). You can’t process samples the same way. But why would someone like to have variation on a kick?
Hm, I think having another competition is the better option. A competition without any restrictions. Something about music, not about the way getting there.
But guys, this is obviously going to be the restricted nerdy Renoise only for techies with sample based sound design from scratch competition I don’t like, so I tend to skip this one again even though I’ve written more than enough in this thread. Many things you’re talking about are new to me (what the fuck is “the old ringmod trick” etc.) and I don’t want to deal with stuff I’ll probably never need again. As a self-employed person my time is really short, otherwise I would have made more music, but this year is even worse than last year. At least this thread inspired me to deal a little bit more with sound design from scratch (within VSTs). Have fun!
If you think until the end of the chain: Sample based drum machines sampled it from somewhere. If it is an electronically sounding drum, it was designed with a synthesizer. Sometimes they layered natural drums like in Linndrum. Or layered a synthetic drum with a natural one. In the end, all drums come from a real world drum or a synthesizer.
To mimic a real drummer. Very statically sounding / timed drums tend to tire the ear. If you mimic a real drummer, by slightly varying attack, start, sustain or maybe even pitch it can sound better. It doesn’t have to random and also can follow the context.
It’s a technique more than a decade old where you use the ring modulator device’s modulation functions as audible oscillators. Since ring modulation in digital domain is simply a multiplication of a signal with a function/oscillator, you can tease out the oscillator by feeding the ring modulator a signal with a constant value. And since DC offset in digital domain is simply addition/subtraction, you can just put a DC offset device before the ringmod device to make the ringmod turn into an oscillator. Or alternatively you could just have a single sample with a constant DC offset and loop that. Here’s a tutorial that goes through this in a very basic manner in the first half of so:
How so? What exactly is making you feel that way? I can’t find a single post here that would support this perspective. Mutant cats, aka free for anything is winning by the looks of it. And people should be allowed to feel just how they feel about their own creative process. If someone else feels like using VSTs or sample packs would feel like cheating to them, how does that concern you in anyway? Like they say where I’m from: it doesn’t itch your butt. You stay strong in your truth and let other people stay strong in theirs! And just because a lot of people are interested in more technical topics and discussing Renoise here at the Renoise forums, doesn’t mean the compo is restricted for only people who prefer doing stuff exclusively in Renoise (unless it’s a compo with rules that specifically forbid VSTs).
There’s a lot more to electronic music than just “4-on-the-floor” type of genres. In some genres yes, you probably want a constant, unvarying kick, but that is not something that could be made into a universal statement. Not by a longshot.
I’m actually intrigued. What exactly do you mean “you can’t process samples the same way”? Could you elaborate?
And are you aware of all the wonderful probabilistic and generative modulation possibilities within renoise? You can absolutely have variation on your samples in renoise! You can have a new EQ, new pan position, new FX send values, new bit depth etc. on every single new hit of a drum for example. So what precisely is this processing you can’t do to samples?
Regarding the rindmod trick, you can also do essentially the same thing, but with polyphony by using the AM filters 100% wet. Windowed waveforms produce sync effects, too. Peep this video if interested
), but it’s not “imprecise” either. They are extremely precise and completely predictable AFAIK, just limited in their own way (and somewhat misleading in the mod envelopes case, because the interface can show you things that are not actually happening to your audio). So it’s not “wonky”, it just doesn’t work in audio rate. I’m not aware of any real “imprecision” and have tested multiple setups with complete minus infinity dB results in null tests. If there is a way to show an imprecision in Renoise in time domain that makes complete null impossible, I’d be really interested in expanding my knowledge! So please do share or link to some resources! 
. In the end, I agree with you: the envelopes could be better, and are in any synth that does audio rate modulation. But we’re getting a bit off-topic here…
