More Instrument Envelopes

B-complex · May 9, 2011, 7:27pm

As it is quite ***** placed now, would be cool if we could actually use more envelopes for instruments, similar way you can use more plugins
also an option to have the envelopes unminimised would be cool, i really dislike how when i want to go to instrument mode i open up the sample keyzones instead
and … well

vvoois · May 9, 2011, 8:06pm

+1
I sometimes also would like to have an extra volume envelope to add a more controled tremolo effect. (you can still do this with the LFO, but you can’t really delay the initiation of the effect.)
The envelopes definately deserve their spot on the middle frame rather than the bottom frame.

rhowaldt · May 9, 2011, 8:43pm

can someone please explain to me why the envelopes are not just part of the DSP section, as, say, an Envelope Device? is it just that the Instrument Envelopes can be applied on a per-sample basis, while the Track DSPs are just that: effects on the entire track?

if that is the case, i’ll give you a +1 for the suggestion, but i also think it would be even better to have a way to have ‘Sample DSPs’ instead of Track DSPs.

joule · May 9, 2011, 8:54pm

I feel that the instrument envelopes are part of a bad/old design, waiting to be phased out. Rhowalt is hopefully describing the future. Renoise going Reason

niNja_pWn · May 9, 2011, 9:24pm

Renoise is Renoise… Reason is Reason.

vvoois · May 10, 2011, 2:09pm

Reason is no reason to reason about Renoise.

rhowaldt · May 10, 2011, 2:13pm

but seriously, anyone who can shed some more light on the history and intention of the instrument envelopes? quite curious as to how they relate to the DSP devices and the decisions made here.

Conner_Bw · May 10, 2011, 2:16pm

Cut and paste from a magical place… I might be bending the rules a bit much for peoples tastes, but fuck em!

rhowaldt:

Because a same sample can be played simultaneously with the same settings on multiple tracks, [At this time] we can not allow Instrument DSP FX. This is a bit hard to understand, so let me show an example:

Let’s assume we trigger “instrument 1”, which plays back one single sample, on “Track 1”. Later on also we also trigger this instrument on “Track 2” with a different note.

If we now want to apply a delay FX on an instrument level, we’d need two delay instances (two delay buffers for the played back notes of the instrument) in order to apply the effect separately for the note on Track 1 and Track 2.

Because we don’t know in which track you’re playing the sample next, we’d have to create a Delay FX device for each track under the hood, and keep its settings in sync with what you have set for the instrument. This maybe would even work for simple effects like filters, but would create masses of dead, dummy FX instances for plugins.

In practice this means that as long as we allow samples to be triggered on multiple tracks as once, we can NOT have instrument DSP FXs. Only thing that would be possible is something like a “send”. Sending the instruments output also to one or more send tracks beside of the track it’s playing on.

The current instrument envelopes are actually invisible, low cpu, optimized FX “on each track under the hood.”

It doesn’t scale to more complex DSPs.

This is part of an ongoing internal discussion about:

rhowaldt · May 10, 2011, 2:23pm

@conner_bw: awesome. that’s a pretty good explanation, and sheds a lot of light on this discussion. i’m satisfied. thanks a lot for your rebellious behavior!

B-complex · May 11, 2011, 12:10pm

allowing instrument envelopes on vsti though would be great,

somehow I feel that the renoise team is missing a bit on multi sample instruments are used for drums,
there instrument envelope definitely has it’s place and actually would be extended to global instrument envelope , vs
envelope per sample - as different drum hits may use different envelope -
saying something about envelopes being obsolete is very untrue and while global redesign of instruments may be good step,
i think the traditional instrument tracker section has it’s place but actually should be extended

i understand the automation envelopes on vsti instruments may be tricky in connection with actual vst automatization
but i suppose the user could decide wheter he wants the automation to be locked - to the parameter envelope or wheter
he wants to use it freely in automation window,

tbh i personally do lot of automation with envelopes within vsti synth, i can’t really say that i started to like renoise
automation window yet