Ok, you have asked for it, the sketch is back. hehe
Think of it as all the functionality of Renoise’s current Pattern View but changed visually.
On another note, I think I like Renoise’s current Automation Envelope approach bettern than the one in my sketch. 
?
What’s the point of this?
Why are you posting modified Fruity screens on the Renoise forum?
It’s nasty and degrades most things you can do in Renoise.
Please don’t show that horror stuff ever again…
Horrible screen!!! Don’t post this again… Renoise is more more more powerfull 
WOW, I really did get on your guyses soft side hehe, Sorry,
Indeed, Renoise is a very powerful tool. Even though I have been trying it for a few days, I see its great advantages over the standard sequencers.
My point here is, it would be nice to visually enhence the pattern view where you can easily see where each note is used, where automation takes place, instead of lookint at series of characters and numbers. Don’t you guys see any benefits of that?
The Tracker idea stays the same. You see all notes of every track. You only arrange pattern order. etc.
I just don’t get why the harsh words? hehe But then again, maybe I have to get into the Tracker Matrix to understand your views 
there is a pattern arranger in development, tho i wouldnt expect it to look anything close to the one above, its been the subject of Alot of discussions. i havent seen anything on it, but i really hope that its not mostly mouse driven. point an click, point an click, point an click, just doesnt seem fun or good to me.
btw the fruity edit image, is somewhat of a dis on renoise. when i first saw it i didnt believe you were actually serious. but i guess you were. its nothing against you. its the idea that fruity could even be compared to renoise.
if i was to make the correlation,
fruity is to legos as renoise is to cad/cam.
First of all, guys, forget about FL Studio here. I just took first Step Sequencer screenshot I could find to make my point. Sorry, but I didn’t have time to sketch out everything from scratch.
Again, in no way I am comparing FL to Renoise.
I am just talking about visually enhancing the Pattern View. I think, making it look more like a Step Sequencer would make it easier on the eyes. Also, Automation Envelopes could somehow be added there too. Although, the current automation envelopes are very nice.
Sub Torn, how much experience do you have with trackers? To me, it seems that you didn’t get the full potential of them. I understand what is your problem about figuring which note the automation is affecting, but I think this can be effectively addressed by the tiny vertical line which is into the automation and represents the pattern cursor position, and the numbers on the top of the automation window, which show the row numbers. The solution you are sketching degrades almost all of tracking potential.
the only complaint I have to do about automation-and-pattern-editor is that, when the focus is on automation, you cannot use arrows up/down to move through the pattern. With this sole little addition, it would be perfect for me.
That has got to be the stupidest post ever posted here on the Renoise forum.
Please close this thread, delete it if possible.
subtorn, you’re not making new friends here posting modified fr***y l***s screenshots in the renoise suggestions forum.
if this will ever get implemented in renoise, i will haunt you down in order to slap your shiny little a** until the break of dawn.
(nothing personal though)
Ohoh, now I’ve done it , shit
Now I know that anything to do with FL has to stay miles away from here hehehe
Lets forget about my stupid sketch, which, I agree, is very bad.
But don’t tell me guys that you would rather look at bunch of numbers rather then have more of a graphical view? Or maybe you would hehe
I have been working all my life with standard sequencers. That’s why I feel this way. Please try to understand where I am coming from rather then shout at me…
I honestly did not post this topic in order to stir up some anger.
Nobody blames you for not having worked in a real tracker and thus not knowing what it is to work with a real sequencer.
A sequencer with a lot of simultaneous applicable options just can’t be stuffed in a simplifyed gui presentation like you posted, don’t get anyone here wrong, you spend a lot of time on the image but it might be better to try and get the hang of things and experiment a bit (with the demo /tutorial song files) and then if you have discovered things by yourself (or by asking, there is always someone around to answer your questions very quickly), then try again to consider what you would like.
It could be that what you desire you might find in a sequencer like aodix. But if you look at that one, notes still look like chars and figures.
just count the number of things to define the fruity pattern editor, then do that for the renoise pattern editor
now i can do “dX” in the vol/pan column to have a delay assigned to a certain note… but it’s just one fix, what about note lengths (try f6 in the vol/pan column with global speed set to 6 ticks, of course it doesn’t cut the note, although that’s the only thing you can intend with putting the f6 there, it’s because any note-offs are by design not bound the note-ons), and then there’s still the resolution/zooming issue…
i’ve read, fruity is called only a “game” for making music, but it has clearly a better designed pattern editor except that old point: trackers show time + channels + note values, standard piano roll editors either show time + channels or time + note values, but never all three dimensions, since these piano roll editors don’t use note names for every note, that and imho more keyboard shortcuts make the editing in trackers faster than in piano roll editors
beside keyboard usage and parts of the pattern editor, trackers and software like fruity/cubase really have a lot in common, i wonder why some people try to seperate them so much
yesterday i saw releases of berotracker and another tracker, and they showed me that tracker view and piano roll really can coexist well for the same data, using a switchable view
btw, i immediately got sub torn’s idea, one part of it seems to be: notes and automation should be shown parallel…kinda good, horizontal rows of note names…also kinda good…
some people don’t seem to like new kinds of showing the data, but i really like that more than any feature that works around the problem…
ps:
if early tracker devs would have had that much dpi like today, they might have already done a tracker that horizontally shrinks the 3x1 (width x height) note names to 1x1 images like in that picture, just the 4x1 effect column might be a bit wide, admittedly, if you’ll ever be able to enter 16384 different pitch bend values, you’d need 5 decimal digits, shrinking them to 1x1 size would look bad
automation is still the only data that’s not shown side by side to the notes, maybe automation is just horizontal because that way editing automations seemed easier. but seeing automations parallel with the notes (not orthogonal like now) is much more benefit, and seeing several automations side by side is better too, isn’t modern trackering (i mean with vsts etc) mostly about seening and editing more data at once and not clicking around for that like in fruity loops (pretty much like having note names as third dimension)
option: vertical / horizontal, i think an optimal design would allow both directions
that subtrack in the picture represents nothing else than another note column. it’s called ‘subtrack’ and has an indent because in that scenario you asign a track to another track, which has an instrument asigned. renoise doesn’t need that since it has instrument numbers per note, but the picture isn’t plainly wrong.
changing the font is good but it doesn’t really touch implementing such a view sub torn and me would like to use.
i thought about 4) again, calling it subtrack and viewing it with an indent isn’t wrong, it’s plain right, because ‘subtrack’(=note column) belongs to the track(type=PatternTrack) of course, it can’t stand solely. instrument numbers are another thing…
sad, that martinal couldn’t implement it… but i personally like tracker views more
well i didn’t think as far as overlaying, just side by side. sure many good and better concepts have been discussed…yeah… and renoise is already a great tool. last few tracks i have done with renoise instead of fruity again. bought both but i’ll stop switching between them now… renoise is a tracker and i like it;-)
ps: sub torn, just seeing you add details to the idea/concept. as i said i personally don’t think the pic was just a wrong interpretation of renoise, or lego vs. cad or something. but changing fundamental things, i guess, will be on a list because it’s a change, and at the very end of the list because it’s about a fundamental change. if you change the real basics, you’d need to create a design that’s capable of loading and holding old and new song data, as renoise always was backwards compatible (?)…
so, basicly, you’d just need to get hold of a vst host and create a new proggy or wait for renoise 2.0, 3.0 whatever, to have such a big change. i’m pretty sure taktik knows of many ways to redesign it, and of the problems that would arise. but anyway brainstorming is good.
The time markers could be an addition but they are not secure, meaning if you have tempo changes in the song they timing markers are not accurate anymore.
The steps in the tracks can also be selected by range in Renoise and can be dragged so i don’t get your point why this idea should be implemented.
The only thing in your view that deserves a positive reaction is the way tracks can be given their individual colour. But i still call that a feature for newbies. So would it be worth all that to implement such visual assets for people that probably use it for a couple of weeks and then go advanced mode?
There are other programs which can acctually be more effecient in some ways.
And you can do a trackerprogram that doesn’t have to show all the data at the same time like in Renoise.
Skale use bars to controll command data and Aodix does not have delay values. You could combine how those two trackers work.
Instead of bashing him for taking a FL screenshot try to understand if there might be something good in his suggestion…
sub torn, lack of immediate support? what people say about the idea?
that’s not the only prob…it might take really long until renoise does meet more needs…
my long term view is: today renoise is my standard app, creating something on your own is hard
i just don’t care about the association of fruity screen shots and renoise becoming less usable, if there’s an idea why not post it… maybe use ascii art…
c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 g5 g5 – a5 f5 c6 a5 g5
/’’’…/’’’’…–’’’’’’’-…~…~…/’’’…/’’’’.
c4 c4 c4 c4 – -- – -- – -- – -- – --
…–’’’’’’’-…
c5 \ c4 |
d5 / c4 \
e5 ( – /
d5 / – \
e5( c4 /
is that better?g
i think, i’m not a fan of subtracks, because i really needed to think: what is a subtrack? my absolute favourite editor would have just less rules to be defined… so that you can’t hit a wall, you would understand a system, know that it can do what you could ever (most time) want, never get stuck because of more things you need to know about the system;-) … get up in the middle of the night and be braindead as hell and be able to create music… like with my keyboard, my cat can jump on it and it plays…my cat can handle it…
lol…cu…
Due to popular demand, the sketch is back hehe Hey, it’s not my fault
I agree 100%! I grew up playing with this stuff and I really think it helped me to develop a curious and analytical mind, wondering how things are built, how to make weird little motorised devices with my Lego Technics, etc. I see the average Lego kits available now and it makes me pretty sad. Everything is becoming so lazy these days with the big, stupid pre-made pieces as you’ve pointed out (those Bionicles things really piss me off), which require almost zero effort to put together. The whole fun of Lego is about taking all those hundreds of little pieces and actually turning them into something cool, not just lazily putting a handful of pieces together in a totally pre-defined way. It’s just like some oversized Kinder egg toy now, which have also become very low quality in recent years. When I was a kid you could find cool stuff like little motorized cars inside a Kinder egg. But the last few eggs I’ve bought have been some piece of crap like a Spongebob square pants model which is made from 2 or 3 pieces of pre-painted plastic. You hardly even get any stickers to put on them anymore! It’s a bloody travesty. The new generation of children simply aren’t having their creativity stimulated enough.
