New Tool (2.8) Duplex: Grid Pie

[danoise]

@dby

Also, maybe pattern follow should be optional in Rec-mode? That way you could also move around the cursor and edit the pattern while playing without exiting Grid Pie.

We already include an option to follow the pattern or not - the reasoning being this is two people jamming: one is programming notes & stuff in Renoise, the other is copying and arranging stuff on the fly using Grid Pie. It’s sort of a recording mode already, and IMHO things would get too complex if something started to override the existing options in specific situations? But nevertheless, it’s the first kind of recording mode I considered - but I like your approach even better.

@dby

Another thing to consider: What happens if a track is armed but no clip is playing? Could you still edit that empty clip? Would it be “copied back” to an empty slot?

Absolutely, there really isn’t such a thing as an empty clip - it’s always pointing to somewhere within your song. If this wasn’t possible, you couldn’t create a Grid Pie’d arrangement from scratch (if someone dared to do such a thing)

BTW: did you read my own suggestions for improving this tool?
http://www.renoise.c…post__p__257231

[dby]

@danoise

We already include an option to follow the pattern or not - the reasoning being this is two people jamming: one is programming notes & stuff in Renoise, the other is copying and arranging stuff on the fly using Grid Pie. It’s sort of a recording mode already, and IMHO things would get too complex if something started to override the existing options in specific situations? But nevertheless, it’s the first kind of recording mode I considered - but I like your approach even better.

I only notice it wasn’t possible to enable pattern follow when running GridPie, it jumps to the play position and switches off again.

Didn’t even try to edit the way you describe as I always like to hear the changes I make. But I see how it could be useful in some situations now that I tried it. Anyways, that method would still be possible to use even after a Rec-mode being implemented?

@danoise

BTW: did you read my own suggestions for improving this tool?
http://www.renoise.c…post__p__257231

No I missed those suggestions. No 1 would be really nice. The other two went a bit over my head

[danoise]

@dby

No I missed those suggestions. No 1 would be really nice. The other two went a bit over my head

No, it’s surely because I failed to describe them properly “Keep the beat” is basically about the fact that Renoise can/will cause a “jump” when you switch between patterns of varying lengths. Try switching between a very short, and a very long pattern? I’m simply proposing a method for ensuring that this doesn’t happen (after all, G.P. is a live performance tool).

PS: I forgot to add “scheduled clips” to the list of proposed features

[dby]

Ah, yes keeping the beat is very important indeed. I had lots of timing problems with my old laptop before it crashed, so I know.

I don’t think I would use scheduling very much cause I like the direct approach, but I’m sure many would find it very useful, perhaps essential even.

[dby]

Trying out GridPie in Duplex 0.98b13 with my Monome40h. Running SerialOSC through Pages 0.2.2a33.

I can’t trigger any of the Mutes from my Monome, works when I click the GUI.

And also navigation jumps twice as far as it’s supposed to, ie 12 instead of 6 horisontally and 14 instead of 7 vertically. Very easy to work around, so no biggie.

[danoise]

@dby

Trying out GridPie in Duplex 0.98b13 with my Monome40h. Running SerialOSC through Pages 0.2.2a33.

Hmm…works perfectly here, both mutes and navigation - I’m not using Pages though…are the other application working as they’re supposed to (recorder et al.) ?

@dby

And also navigation jumps twice as far as it’s supposed to, ie 12 instead of 6 horisontally and 14 instead of 7 vertically. Very easy to work around, so no biggie.

Again, strange. Sounds like messages are being doubled somehow, but I can’t replicate it here.
As a workaround, you can simply set the vertical and horizontal page size to whatever you like (well, half of that .

[dby]

I’ll try using monomeserial to directly access duplex, might be pages messing up the messages again.

[dby]

Yes. Mutes work fine when I use monomeserial directly. Pattern position in the far right column doesn’t work. No LED feedback and no reaction to button presses. Works in GUI.

I’ll report the Mutes problem to Phortran who makes Pages.

When I run SerialOSC through Pages the LED feedback of Pattern position does work, but not button presses.

[danoise]

I have been tinkering with a couple of new features in Grid Pie, “running start” and “keep the beat”.
While I was at it, I discovered a bug in the polyrhythmic pattern-length computation, which got fixed too

So, what is running start? It’s simply a way to provide a smooth transition into Grid Pie’d mode -
Here’s how it works:

1. Load a song and when you hear something you’d like to remix, you just…
2. Enable Grid Pie - “running start” will make Grid Pie import the current pattern (the playing pattern, if the sequencer is running).
3. Mess around with the song, have some fun
4. Disable Grid Pie - the sequencer will resume playback from where you left.

“Keep the beat” is a bit harder to describe, but it essentially makes playback more solid, as you switch between/combine patterns of different lengths.
This should make Grid Pie an even more performance-friendly tool

Download here

[atte (a773)]

I’ve played quite a bit with duplex/gridpie on launchpad, and it’s really great. But it still feels like an add-on. For instance composing with is strange, you’re hearing things (“clips”) in a linear fashion, although they’re supposed to be mixed with gridpie.

How about automatically copying changes made to gridpies pattern back to the origins? This way I could compose in gridpies pattern while gridpie is running. I’m not sure how gridpie handles a step sequencer tool, but this way you could really compose and/or jam live with duplex, a step sequencer and a keyboard.

What do you think?

BTW: Danoise, are you from Denmark too? I’m in Ølstykke 30km NW of Copenhagen

[danoise]

@atte: yes, I have been thinking about that too. I think that Grid Pie will always be ‘a somewhat’ separate workflow but ‘performance-friendly’ shouldn’t rule out ‘great for composing’

The simplest approach I can of, when talking about preserving results of a grid pie session, is to have the ability to save/create pattern on-the-fly. Better not to save result back to the original song, but keep it in the special last part of the song, so you’re not changing the stuff you’re using to create stuff with in the first place (insert confused smiley here

And yes, I’m dangrish too. I call Aarhus my home

[atte (a773)]

@danoise

@atte: yes, I have been thinking about that too. I think that Grid Pie will always be ‘a somewhat’ separate workflow but ‘performance-friendly’ shouldn’t rule out ‘great for composing’

Exactly, esp if things are configurable via settings.

@danoise

The simplest approach I can of, when talking about preserving results of a grid pie session, is to have the ability to save/create pattern on-the-fly. Better not to save result back to the original song, but keep it in the special last part of the song, so you’re not changing the stuff you’re using to create stuff with in the first place (insert confused smiley here

I think what you’re talking about could be useful indeed, but I also think there are (more, for me) times when writing back is the way to go. how about putting stuff like this in settings menu?

I imagine the following to be nice-to-haves:

1. Automatically write changes to the gridpie pattern back to originating patterns (My suggestion).

2. Having shortcut (keyboard or launchpad) to write changes back to originating patterns “now”

3. Having shortcut for “clone current gridpie pattern to new song pattern” (I guess that’s what you suggest, right?)

I’m still to really, really explore gridpie, so part of the reason I’m suggesting this, it that somehow I’m reluctant or scared of managing more than 8x7 matrix through gridpie. So I imagine setting up a 8x7 grid, some slots prefilled, some left blank, then reworking, constructing, realtime recording into those patterns in performance + navigating through them with gridpie. Also you loose some of the instant-ness if you have to scroll before triggering a clip. And I haven’t used Ableton Live, so I’m mostly trying to feel my way around this. Could you (or others) comment on that; running (much) more than 8x7 matrix through gridpie? Actually I would find it quite interesting how people are approaching the gridpie in the first place!!!

@danoise

And yes, I’m dangrish too. I call Aarhus my home

Nå, men så hej Ku være coolt med et dansk real-life renoise community at hooke op med, men vi to er for langt fra hinanden til at det gir mening, ved dog ikke om der er andre danskere her…

Translation: Hi + bla bla regarding other danish renoisers

[dby]

@atte

1. Automatically write changes to the gridpie pattern back to originating patterns (My suggestion).

I’ve suggested something similar. Would be great to compose in GridPie mode.

[danoise]

@atte

1. Automatically write changes to the gridpie pattern back to originating patterns (My suggestion).

2. Having shortcut (keyboard or launchpad) to write changes back to originating patterns “now”

The thing I find confusing about (1 and 2) is that what you’re listening to is the result of 2,3,4, well - any number of patterns. Should it then modify all those patterns? After all, it’s a rare case that you only have a single originating pattern.
Also, if some grid pie combination sounded really cool, as a result of updating the source pattern(s) everything could easily sound different as a result.

I don’t know…I guess I tend to leave the analytical mode behind when using grid pie, and would like some kind of insurance that I’m not going to screw everything up

@atte

3. Having shortcut for “clone current gridpie pattern to new song pattern” (I guess that’s what you suggest, right?)

Yep, preferably creating those patterns after the temporary GRID PIE pattern so they are not included in the pattern/track navigation, but rather, exist in their own separate song space. And again, because we don’t have an obvious position within the song where we can add those patterns I think it’s best to simply stick them at the end of the song

@atte

And I haven’t used Ableton Live, so I’m mostly trying to feel my way around this. Could you (or others) comment on that; running (much) more than 8x7 matrix through gridpie? Actually I would find it quite interesting how people are approaching the gridpie in the first place!!!

+1, there has been praise but little detailed feedback. Bring it on!

From my perspective, I can tell you as much as that I implemented the “running start” feature to make it possible to switch an existing song into Grid Pie’d mode at the flick of a switch. I have used it for multiple remix projects, and find that it’s a hugely inspiring - although also a bit chaotic - way to work. I’ve wanted to try a more planned approach like you’re suggesting, using very small (poly)rhythmic snippets of varying lengths (say, patterns of 6, 9 lines), but somehow I always end up doing some other and more linear stuff instead.

@atte

ved dog ikke om der er andre danskere her…

Jow, vi er skam nogle stykker. Aalborg, Nørrebronx, og jeg kender også et par stykker her i byen
Det fede er, at vi kun er en lille håndfuld men vi spænder totalt vidt og bredt i vores stilarter
DK renoise community kunne også være sjovt, men som du siger er afstanden altid en forhindring. Og dette board rykker jo, uanset sproget

[atte (a773)]

@danoise

The thing I find confusing about (1 and 2) is that what you’re listening to is the result of 2,3,4, well - any number of patterns. Should it then modify all those patterns? After all, it’s a rare case that you only have a single originating pattern.
Also, if some grid pie combination sounded really cool, as a result of updating the source pattern(s) everything could easily sound different as a result.

I don’t know…I guess I tend to leave the analytical mode behind when using grid pie, and would like some kind of insurance that I’m not going to screw everything up

Well, I imagine gridpie keeping track of what currently in the GRID_PIE pattern. Like track1 is playing pat0, track2 is playing pat5 and so on. This way you could build the building blocks on stage! I know renoise is not Ableton Live, but the more real-time work-flow we can get, the better, IMHO.

@danoise

Yep, preferably creating those patterns after the temporary GRID_PIE pattern so they are not included in the pattern/track navigation, but rather, exist in their own separate song space. And again, because we don’t have an obvious position within the song where we can add those patterns I think it’s best to simply stick them at the end of the song

+1, there has been praise but little detailed feedback. Bring it on!

I don’t get the “stick at the end of the song” idea. I mean I know what you mean, but I can’t see the practical use of it (I can, see below, but I’m not sure it’s the same as your idea about it). I would really like to turn gridpie on and stay there (on stage, even if the stage is at home). What happens to those patterns? Are they supposed to be building blocks for further arrangement after I turn off gridpie again? That would make sense, but that’s like not taking full advantage of what gridpie could become. I would like it to work live, live, live

From what I understand Ableton Live has a way of “recording” your clip launches. This would be really great too, start with your building blocks, go crazy on your launchpad + tweak knobs on your BCR2000 and have the whole session recorded possibly for further tweaking. This could be the way to use the after-GRID_PIE-pattern. They could contain the notes + envelopes to reflect exactly how it sounded when you tweaked away live.

How about implementing some of these ideas, and having the behavior configurable, so people could try them out? We’re not forced to have gridpie work the way some big, corporate company thinks is best, but potentially we can experiment with different work-flows and get something that is really working for everybody

@danoise

Jow, vi er skam nogle stykker. Aalborg, Nørrebronx, og jeg kender også et par stykker her i byen
Det fede er, at vi kun er en lille håndfuld men vi spænder totalt vidt og bredt i vores stilarter
DK renoise community kunne også være sjovt, men som du siger er afstanden altid en forhindring. Og dette board rykker jo, uanset sproget

Klart, but it could be really cool to hook up and share stuff, work flows, ideas, code tools, maybe even end up with collaboration projects. I’m from Aalborg originally (just came back 10mins ago after visiting my parents), really cool to know that there are renoisers there, too

[danoise]

@atte

From what I understand Ableton Live has a way of “recording” your clip launches. This would be really great too, start with your building blocks, go crazy on your launchpad + tweak knobs on your BCR2000 and have the whole session recorded possibly for further tweaking. This could be the way to use the after-GRID_PIE-pattern. They could contain the notes + envelopes to reflect exactly how it sounded when you tweaked away live.

Heh, to begin with, I really just ported GP to Duplex and added some features of my own - in the spirit of open-source development, y’know And basically I agree, what you are describing could easily be one of the most attractive “long-term” goals.

It’s not even hard to implement - “on-the-fly-recombined-pattern-rendering” is technically achievable, and would even be less taxing for the CPU as those calculations would be incremental, and only affect small portions of a pattern at a time, as playback is progressing.

Right now, calculations are happening in complete pattern chunks (which can be quite large, if you for instance combine 48 lines with 64 lines).

How about implementing some of these ideas, and having the behavior configurable, so people could try them out? We’re not forced to have gridpie work the way some big, corporate company thinks is best, but potentially we can experiment with different work-flows and get something that is really working for everybody

Well, again open-source means that anyone can fork and split and whatnot. “Duplex Grid Pie” is just one version.
I even have some ideas that are inspired by Grid Pie, but perhaps different enough to warrant a different name (codename: Switchboard ).

just came back 10mins ago after visiting my parents

Wait, what? We might have been riding the same train? (departure from Aalborg at 17:18)

[atte (a773)]

@danoise

Heh, to begin with, I really just ported GP to Duplex and added some features of my own - in the true spirit of open-source development, y’know And basically I agree, what you are describing could easily be one of the most attractive “long-term” goals.

It’s not even hard to implement - “on-the-fly-recombined-pattern-rendering” is technically achievable, and would even be less taxing for the CPU as those calculations would be incremental, and only affect small portions of a pattern at a time, as playback is progressing.

Right now, calculations are happening in complete pattern chunks (which can be quite large, if you for instance combine 48 lines with 64 lines).

Well, again open-source means that anyone can fork and split and whatnot. “Duplex Grid Pie” is just one version.
I even have some ideas that are inspired by Grid Pie, but perhaps different enough to warrant a different name (codename: Switchboard ).

Hmmm. Not sure if you’re 1) encouraging me to fork duplex, 2) dig in and help develop duplex or 3) drawing a sigh thinking about the amount of work it would be to implement this

1. would be crazy. Not of you to suggest but of me to do. Why not have all good things in one place, catering for the different users needs in the configuration.

2. would definitely be a possibility

3. is understandable

@danoise

Wait, what? We might have been riding the same train? (departure from Aalborg at 17:18)

That would have been too much joy for one day I went by car (tracking on the backseat)…

[danoise]

@atte

Hmmm. Not sure if you’re 1) encouraging me to fork duplex, 2) dig in and help develop duplex or 3) drawing a sigh thinking about the amount of work it would be to implement this

(1) I can’t see the harm in producing something parallel, technically any modification could be called a fork
(2) You are helping out by discussing features. IMO, the more detail, the more helpful for a developer
(3) It’s healthy to breathe?

[atte (a773)]

@danoise

(1) I can’t see the harm in producing something parallel, technically any modification could be called a fork*
(2) You are helping out by discussing features. IMO, the more detail, the more helpful for a developer
(3) It’s healthy to breathe?

I’m not sure when I get the time, but at some point I’ll probably dig into the code. Either I’ll remix it to make a new tool or… do you accept patches

Meanwhile I hope you’ll sleep on my suggestions, maybe they appear sane in the morning or some other day…

[dby]

@atte

Well, I imagine gridpie keeping track of what currently in the GRID_PIE pattern. Like track1 is playing pat0, track2 is playing pat5 and so on. This way you could build the building blocks on stage! I know renoise is not Ableton Live, but the more real-time work-flow we can get, the better, IMHO.

+1

In GridPie mode I like think of each track as separate patterns, detached from the normal pattern system ready to be combined with eachother. I don’t care much how it sounds in normal mode with all tracks playing.