Propellerhead's Record Software

Obviously that statement is a bit hateful upon Digidesign. Pro Tools is built for recording studios. It does multitracking flawlessly, without much effort, is laid out wonderfully, and intuitive. I have FL Studio in my arsenal. I have buzz in my arsenal. I have Ableton in my arsenal too, and of course Renoise. Everything goes to Pro Tools in the end because when you’re in an environment where keeping things documented and backed up is crucial to your existence, it is the best format. Once it’s tracked to disk and saved, everything involved is now in a folder in which you can label and back up. You then get a promise by Digi that your session will work an ANY subsequent release. A Pro Tools session recorded in 1994 will still open up on modern day hardware to dump into a console and re-mix or re-master. You can record a simple guitar/vocal demo at home and if it’s good enough take it to a studio and have everything already saved without track bouncing or any of that mess that takes valuable time.

This is coming from someone who used to be like you, I used to bash Digi all of the time, I took the recording classes and all of that but just stayed pretty much ignorant until I actually had to spend day in-out with it. I started production work for a studio owner and that’s what he used, so no matter what I used before-hand the end result always had to be pro-tools. Since it was there I just threw my elitist attitude out the window, read the manual, learned all it can potentially accomplish, and after about a month with it I got fast with it and the workflow was second nature.

Audiosuite plugins are also the shit, and I like to use them for glitch effect. Pluggo (rip cycling74 you just lost the majority of your marketshare not everyone is using ableton) in audiosuite is like having dblue’s glitch on steroids in close to a Renoise environment where you can apply the effects to drums by beat or even samples if you wanted to. So in that respect it wins over any audio software I’ve tried, the only one that can get close to that is Renoise and rendering selections to samples takes just a few more steps and less enjoyable overall.

FL Studio is my sound design program of choice for granular stuff and timestretching, it just does it well. (though the melodyne plugin functions well as a decent timestretcher too if you know how to use it like that) GRANULARIZING SAMPLES OPTION IN RENOISE PLEASE!!! That would provide a whole new approach to minimalism since you can have very short samples with random grains and have great textures out of small file size. It would create a whole new arena for “chiptunes” without a doubt, just different methodology.

I’ve always found pro tools less of a headache to edit with, coming from someone who’s spent years in software composing. It’s easier to play out 32 bars of keys in pro tools than it is renoise, so now we can talk about musical talent.

How about engineering talent? Does it strike you odd how Pro Tools emphasizes stereo and mono mixing tracks with the stereo audio in both left and right? It doesn’t blur your mix that way. The sound that comes out is “cleaner” because of that, and that’s one of the reasons why we haven’t switched completely yet.

And a rip off? Pro Tools LE comes free with their interfaces. The Mbox 2 pro they got right, is about the same as other audio interfaces and the preamps and conversion don’t suck. Sure they are no Avalon, but if I was a n artist who was serious about his music and recording a track at a time with a basic condenser mic and a guitar, then why would I use anything else? What would be the point? You make a track, plug a mic in, arm the track for recording and hit record. You’re going to get better sound out of that little box than anything by m-audio or any of that shit. Only one I’ve seen make a better small-form interface is Emu and they’re no more now.

Recently we just recorded a couple songs using a condenser mic and an mbox 2. What came out was clear and crisp, and was good enough to put on disc. I’ve used m-audio interfaces with FL, m-audio interfaces with Logic, lexicon interfaces with FL, steinberg interfaces, yamaha digital consoles, and so on. The M-Box 2 did better in most cases in the m-audio and just as good as a high quality steinberg interface or yamaha digital console. And for 500 bucks? To have something that works everywhere, in any real studio that got out of their mothers basement, anywhere in the world? That I can back up and open it again as long as Pro Tools is around left just as the day I left it?

You either need it or you don’t. My advice is to get to know it and work with it, use whatever else in the process of creating music if you must.

And that horrible release by propellerhead, I hope it doesn’t make version 2.0 because not only is there no need for it with everything they’ve developed thus far, Reason really does nothing more for me than a great sampler that I can get strings, pianos, guitar, and other multisampled real instruments with a vast library from everyone involved. The synths on it are horrible, give me FM8, Absynth, Sugar Bytes Unique, oatmeal, and Vaz Modular any day before I accept the aging synthesis by subtractor, the blandness of thor, and FL just does granular synthesis better and you can load your own waveforms. Reason synths=YUCK!

So their software is backwards compatible. Great deal. I can load rns files made in Renoise 1.28 (2004?) in 2.1. Heck, I can even open Protracker modules I made back in 92 into it and I never got a “promise” for that.
Marketing people just know how to word stuff in a way common stuff will sound like the most awesome thing ever.

im not going to buy recored any audio work i do i will do in cubase.
but as for reason being a bad music app i would have to disagree its the first program i learnt to use, and is still my first stop when creating a track (and a pretty one at that) then i can put it in renoise and bludgeon it to death… yay ^-^

Well sure, which is why I am obviously here in the forums. :P

Renoise/trackers are the only other system that really got it right the first time around

Cubase died with the ST died, no more rock solid midi timing which made it famous and they chose to develop a DAW. I mean sure, it was inevitable, but the way it works is just horrible i can’t stand the workflow or the constant complete re-writes of the same gazillion window GUI with each system release. It’s just madness… Ask yourself, how many windows SHOULD it take to open a VST? That was the only decent thing steinberg designed, and also to be honest I think oskari designed a better platform sound wise which is why I’m a Buzz lover too. I mean, seriously. Trackers were the first computer sequencers to exist. Because of the nature of general nostalgia in the scene, they’ve kept up with the times and allowed you to play all your old stuff too. I mean people are still using MED or IT or whatever on old computers in 3rd world countries and making some killer electronica or whatever with it that none of us are even aware of…

The DAW scene didn’t start maturing until 2003. Trackers could theoretically do everything with an audio file that old DAWs would only dream to do in 1998. Most DAWs with software instruments are nothing but buzz clones, FL studio was originally designed as nothing but a buzz clone with an easy GUI, and it would’ve been too but oskari told em to f-themselves.

It’s comparable to the Mac and PC argument. Pro Tools just works. They have to answer to thousands of people who make professional recordings in studios that make real money. It’s not just a “marketing” thing, and sure I could use anything with “just as good of quality if you used it right” but it takes less work still. It’s not hard to use, most people could learn it within a week or so. In fact, I think making a good mix is harder in other software.

But if you don’t use any real instruments at all, in my opinion it probably is a waste. The sequencer on it is horrible, which is why I use Renoise and Pro Tools.

I would argue that backward compatibility is a big deal and not just marketing jargon. I’ve had a bunch of trouble with loading old Logic files into newer versions, which stems less from issue within Logic, than their continually moving AU targets. It seems like every update of Logic “breaks” more and more AUs, to the point that its risky to use anything other than the most trusted plug-ins.

I haven’t been using Renoise long enough to experience many upgrades, but so far, it seems very rock solid. An Audio Unit used in an older version of the software works just fine with a new version. I actually think that’s pretty awesome. :yeah:

I didn’t mean it not being a big deal, because it definatelly is.
What I meant was Protools also having it, but it being praised to heaven by their marketing people as being something only Protools can offer. That’s at least the impression I got from the sentence I quoted a few posts above.

umm… that’s wrong. FL started as a Hammerhead/Rebirth “clone”. Later (version 3? Can’t remember exactly) it got a Buzz plugin adapter developed by Oskari for being able to load buzz machines into it. It had a bug, they asked Oskari to fix it, he refused to do so until they payed him a huge amount of cash. Imageline told him to f-himself but need to keep the damn (bugged) buzz adapter in order to keep FL downwards compatible to older versions. That’s what’s up :P

Well that’s true too, it has nothing to do with the buzz adapter though. I see it the other way around, they were making an “easy” software for music production in a world where trackers ruled the home computer music scene. Oskari had a superior engine and he knew it, and knows it still. Why do you think he went through and started re-developing it? In those days you either had a tracker, or you had Pro Tools. The way it handled playlist and effects routing, half of the plugin developers, and so on pretty much all migrated from the buzz scene. The only thing that comes from rebirth is the 303 and step sequencer, the piano roll came from Cubase etc, and simsynth/ts404/whatever was all standalone software at the time, still later re-done as buzz machines…

For the record thouigh FL’s granular engine is the best on the market. Nothing like it. Time stretching in acid and logic sound horrible. Ableton is better, but not by much. If i was going to make an industrial album and/or large textures I’d choose FL.

And the backwards compatibility that I’m referring to is something only Pro Tools can offer to the extent of keeping files cleaned up, ready for backup, and the assurance that it’s going to play down the road when you re-open the mix and your studio has different hardware. It’s just a little bit more reliable when someone develops x process and you want to re-mix and master multi tracks in back catalog.

It’s not marketing gimmicks at all. PT is the only software that sticks all of your audio files in a folder within the project folder, and saves them with track name and take. Cubase asks you where you want to put them, FL just sticks audio for every project in one folder. Logic has problems with backwards compatibility, and Ableton is just not quite there as a DAW yet. It’s meant for live use anyways. PT is the only software that allows you to switch between alternate takes out of a bin. It is one of the only softwares that have discrete stereo mixing engine, from concept down to render, it is NOT stereo interleaved. If you use your software for more than just a hobby on a day in/out basis you just don’t pull your hair out as often. Things are done the way they are supposed to.

The only thing that has anywhere close to those things are trackers. Actually if Renoise took their own developed file format, added SMPTE, piano roll, and true DAW capabilities they would probably rape everyone around. The sequencer alone on it makes everything else obsolete. A markup language based system with audio files zipped up into one project automatically and loaded into RAM instead of hard disk would defeat most systems now that everyone has more than 8 gb of ram. With the development on streamlining to a high quality interface option with a sound card developer they could put everyone else out of business.

But we’re elitists, we like our stuff because we know it’s unique. :P

what the … .
be on topic, please.
this stuff winds me up.

Well… the way you see it and the way it really was/is are two different pair of shoes. ;)

Cubase was around at that time. Logic was (it was called Creator, though, back in the days)
Not every sequencer is based on a tracker (like I have the impression you’re trying to imply) - so isn’t FL. It is a pattern sequencer, granted, but that’s basically it.
It’s like saying Reason was a Buzz clone because you can connect modules through (virtual) wires. That’s nonsense.

What he had was his sequencer (Buzz) and a lot of supporters programming Buzzmachines.
Imageline thought it was a good idea to implement a wrapper for those Buzzmachines for their later incarnation of FL (3?) and asked Oskari to program one. He did and failed to provide further support for it. That’s the only thing that connects FL to Buzz.
I don’t really get where you coming from.

Everything regarding backwards compatibility / a program being able to load projects from older versions is something that actually shouldn’t be an issue at all. Try to get to the point with just one or two short senteces. ^^

The fairlight stored notes numerically… It came out in 1978. I guess it’s argued that it’s not a “tracker” if you’re looking for pure terminology here, but text based sequences was the only thing computers could handle back then, much like text based command lines and text based programs. It wasn’t until the late 80s that computers were powerful enough to handle the screen draws needed for graphic based music composition. It was also the easiest way for the computer to recognize and send off to the sound chip(s) assembly or out through MIDI.

Fruityloops was developed as a way to merge roland style sequencers that musicians were used to, with more advanced sound design only capable by trackers at that time and a touch of cubase. Buzz was chosen as sort of a starting off point since it was the only thing at that time that was capable of synthesizing super complex stuff all in the box without external DSP. VSTi didn’t come out until 1999. You say oh wait! Rebirth!

Oh well Rebirth didn’t have anything more than 2 single oscillator synths and sample playback of drum machines, one compressor, distortion, and delay. You could do this just as well on OctaMED connected to a couple stomp boxes and a 4 track Tascam, which is actually what many people did. (If I ever become un-lazy I’m going to buy an Amiga with a Tascam 424, and install OctaMED while wiring the outputs to the 4 track to compose an entire album for fun.) Audiomulch wasn’t even released until 1998. By the time all of this stuff was released and already out in public by the time FL Studio rolled around with complex sound design capability, where else would they go?

Who designed their internal plugins BEYOND the buzz adapter?

Buzz machine developers.

The plugins back in the days?
The Blood Overdrive, SimSynth, Fruity Filter, FL Center were made by David Billen,
the Chorus, Phaser & Flanger Plugin by Smart Electronix
Compressor & Reverb by Ultrafunk
Fast Distortion by Richard Hoffmann
everything else was programmed by Didier Dambrin (gol), FLs lead developer.
None of them had anything to do with Buzz
The only stuff that has/had anything to do with Buzz in FL is, like already mentioned, the Buzz machine adapter.
Get over it. lol

Where did you get that information from? FL started as a pure MIDI pattern sequencer. :wacko:

from then on it started to get new generator channels for loading samples, different types of synths, FX etc… until the rewrite from v2 to v3 where it was rewritten in order for a piano roll to be possible (amongst other stuff, of course)

fanboyism + speculation < facts ^_^

Otherwise known as kids versus people born in the 70s. :slight_smile:

EDIT: I make no claim as to anyone’s age, just fanning the flames, don’t feed me.

75 to be exact. :)