Real Sidechaining


(joule) #61

@EnergyCrush,

I have trouble getting it working. See picture.

7286 mmorph.png

Strange if it works for you and not me. I’m on Windows 10, Renoise 3.1 x64. I’ve contacted DDFM who said they’ll look into it.


(joule) #62

Anyone thinking about buying (or updating) DDMF metaplugin, be aware that recent versions doesn’t seem to work with Melda plugins (like Mmorph) anymore. I’ve contacted both developers about this incompatibility and they both say it’s a problem with the other product :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Could anyone here that uses metaplugin+mmorph (or any other Melda sidechaining) tell me what version of metaplugin you’re using? It would be very helpful, as I could then revert to the same version.

EDIT: metaplugin has been updated and the problem seems to be fixed!


(Ledger) #63

Thanks for doing the legwork and writing up EnergyCrush!

After experimenting I’ve made a screenshot of how I set it up. I think It’s the same as mr moses?. I’ve found that with multiple instances of Metaplug with routings from multiple tracks can make the **CPU skyrocket so the next step on (not pictured) I’ve used Metaplugin on a send channel and routed channels I want sidechained to that. (Can be phasing issues if not careful with send routing though)

Kick Track: 1 instance of SendIt (included with Metaplug) Sending on channel 1

Bass Track: 1 Instance of MetaPlugin 64bit.

Inside Metaplugin:

1 Instance of Sendit set to receive on channel 1

1 Instance of Reacomp 64bit (needs to match (64)bit version of MetaPlugin) Detector Input set to [Auxilary Input L+R] --the drop-down under knee size

edit: renoise reports 0ms latency.

**if you want to use multiple instances, make sure you use different channels in the Sendit Plugs for each instance of Metaplugin, to stop spiking CPU.

Reacomp freeware download as part of pack of reaper plugs:

http://www.reaper.fm/reaplugs/


(joule) #64

Metaplugin has been updated and the problem seems to be fixed with the new version (2.6.7).

The melda+DDFM devs sorted it out after a minimum amount of nagging :slight_smile: (Appearantly, VST2 sidechaining is a general ‘hack’ and not fully formalized…)


(Ledger) #65

Metaplugin has been updated and the problem seems to be fixed with the new version (2.6.7).

The melda+DDFM devs sorted it out after a minimum amount of nagging :slight_smile: (Appearantly, VST2 sidechaining is a general ‘hack’ and not fully formalized…)

Good to hear!

Metaplugin does seem to be a good solution so far. The setup I showed above also has 0ms Latency!

The only issue so far has been the massive CPU on multiple routings on the same channel. I’ll keep experimenting, though I’m happy to route everything I need side-chained to a send, though it`s less flexible than multiple instances.

Have to say side-chaining is way more important than I thought. I assumed it was just for pumping Daft Punk kind of effects, but it turns out it makes balancing/ compressing drums a hell of a lot easier! A good sign is when you mute the kick and all the other drum channels still sound tight and compressing along nicely, being driven with the kick source. Also means you can balance the kick easier against all those elements as adjust it`s post level with out making a mess of group compression. Saves a lot of tail chasing!

I`m a bit late to the party, but I can see why this is high on a lot of peoples request list!


(Ledger) #66

If on windows, Metaplugin will also load VST .dll’s from Symbolic links. This means if you’re VST folder is a mess as mine is, you can create a separate folder of Symbolic links pointing to your VSTs and browse that from the Metaplugin interface (unfortunatly Metaplugin doesn`t scan for VSTs so you have to load manually). You can organise you symbolic links folder as you like, maybe just having a few side-chainable VSTs linked, or maybe your whole folder in one folder and no sub folders.

With the program Link shell extension you can select multiple dll’s from your VST folder, right-click and Pick Link Source. Then go to your destination Symbolic Liinks folder, right-click and Drop Symbolic Link

To do this for all dll’s in your VST folder first use the search bar and type dll. Hilight all the results and do the above


Guide on howtogeek; the Link Shell Extension is discussed lower down the page:

https://www.howtogeek.com/howto/16226/complete-guide-to-symbolic-links-symlinks-on-windows-or-linux/

Link shell extension Requires 2 downloads,one for the program and a microsoft package – all links at bottom of page:

http://schinagl.priv.at/nt/hardlinkshellext/linkshellextension.html


(Ledger) #67

After experimenting I’ve made a screenshot of how I set it up. I think It’s the same as mr moses?. I’ve found that with multiple instances of Metaplug with routings from multiple tracks can make the CPU skyrocket so the next step on (not pictured) I`ve used Metaplugin on a send channel and routed channels I want sidechained to that. (Can be phasing issues if not careful with send routing though)

It seems to avoid the skyrocketing CPU you have to make sure that:

  1. You use different channels in the Sendit routing VST for each instance of Metaplug. So even if you are using the same kick as a sidechain source: for x amount of Metaplugin instances, you need x amount of Sendit plugins on that kick track, all using different channels.

  2. Make sure the renoise feature ‘Auto suspend plugin when silent’ is enabled for Metaplug. If not, the CPU will skyrocket when the song stops.

*Edit: even start menu search works fine.

  • Another tip for Windows users and loading plugs. A bit easier than the symlinks solution I mentioned before is to use the search program Everything. Just fire it up, type in dll and name_of_plugin_you_want then just drag the dll from there onto Metaplugin interface:

https://www.voidtools.com/


(Ledger) #68

Top MetaPlugin tip for parallel processing. Not obvious feature, done by shift + left-click drag

In Metaplugin you can change the Wet/Dry ratio of the signal going through each of the loaded plugins. You can do this by Shift-dragging the mouse horizontally over a plugin rectangle. A full rectangle means 100 % wet signal, while the slider pulled all the way to the left means the plugin will be bypassed completely

~50% mix


(EnergyCrush) #69

@joule I’m glad a newer version resolved, and sorry I didn’t get a chance to respond earlier…things have been more crazy than usual latey :confused:


(joule) #70

Yes, it was very nice of the devs to fix it!

I’m not using metaplugin at the moment as I switched to S1 as main host where the mixing and most of the midi editing happen. Renoise workarounds and quirks soon add up to tedious workflows that more or less indirectly/subconsciously makes me less creative and less likely to just try stuff out. (It’s still an indispensible tool for fast melody prototyping+detailed sample control, so thank the gods for rewire!)


(Fsus4) #71

thank the gods for rewire!

Speaking of ReWire,joule doyou know if it wouldbe technically possible to treat each new instance of Renoise as a unique ReWire slave?

I know it’s not possible right now with Renoise 3.1, but is it even possible in theory?

I was thinking that maybe some dirty hack around it could solve the problem, like for example messing with the registry and some files. The trick would be too fool a DAW such as S1 to scan and register Renoise1, Renoise2, Renoise3, Renoise4, Renoise5, etc, rather than just Renoise.

Imagine if this was possible, then we could build e.g. complex drum arrangements asone Renoise song template(using VST instruments and all of Renoise’s capabilities as opposed to just samples in Redux), thenbuild another Renoise song template (run in a separate Renoise instance) forsound effects, etc.

This would practically be like having each Renoise instance running as a VST instrument. Add different skins to each instance to tell them apart,place out and pin them on multipledisplays…well, now thatwould be an extremely powerful setup.


(joule) #72

Speaking of ReWire,joule doyou know if it wouldbe technically possible to treat each new instance of Renoise as a unique ReWire slave?

I know it’s not possible right now with Renoise 3.1, but is it even possible in theory?

I don’t know, really. Like you say, I can only add one instance of Renoise as rewire slave in S1. I’m just guessing it wouldn’t help to install multiple versions, but that Renoise is identified via some ID string. As an alternative, I wouldn’t recommend trying to sync hosts with midi and virtual audio cables instead of Rewire. You’ll encounter headaches and/or sync issues.

The kind of workflow that you’re mentioning (or the gist of it) can be covered by proper midi drag’n’drop imo. I’d probably use that, rather than running multiple instances. Unfortunately, that kind of midi drag and drop isn’t available in Renoise yet, which is partly the reason why I use S1.


(mr moses) #73

Hi where did you get all those Bass one shots please? is that the factory content ?

Just part of my ever growing personal samples! Not factory content unfortunately…

hq screenshots please? I can not read this…

Sorry, technical issues. My pics are back up and Metaplugin still working like a charm.

However, it doesn’t seem to work with Izotope Neutron unfortunately. Anyone else have this problem?


(Ledger) #74

Quick tip I just found when using a duplicate kick as your sidechain source . i.e. silenced in the mixer but just driving the side-chain compression.

It can be handy to nudge the duplicate kick track a few ms ahead of time ( a minus value). This means that the compressor will react quicker when clamping down on snares. I was finding that sometimes a bit too much transients were sneaking through, particularly if you have already nudged snare/ clap samples around, in order to improve the groove or widen the sound.


(LFOKringlan) #75

Hello!

Is it only for the kick and bass you guys using this sidechain technique? or is it more?

Do you compress or eq the sound source before the sidechain?

Where do I place the effects? for start or after?

Many questions but Im so confused. :blink: :slight_smile:


(EnergyCrush) #76

Hi LFOKringlan,

Hello!

Is it only for the kick and bass you guys using this sidechain technique? or is it more?

Do you compress or eq the sound source before the sidechain?

Where do I place the effects? for start or after?

Many questions but Im so confused. :blink: :slight_smile:

I was actually using it for morphing two audio signals - synths and samples.

Side-chaining comes up in popular conversation a lot as a method of ‘ducking’ out a tracks audio (or certain frequency range of that audio) in response to another tracks audio signal - like a kick ducking a bass tone to avoid muddiness, or ducking a trance chord as an effect. Almost any modern DAW with developers responsive to their customer base supports this functionality natively now - most of them for several years now.

Essentially it’s a method of routing and using one audio signal to modulate another audio signal…typically using the volume of the first as the modulator of the second. In the case where I was ‘morphing’ audio signals, in reality it was more like a vocoder - using the first signal as a sort of formant to shape the second signal, using Melda’s MMoprh as it were. Not really a deep morph like a Kyma or anything, but an interesting effect nonetheless :slight_smile:

Mickey


(LFOKringlan) #77

Hey Mickey!

I think I got it now… But my CPU is on 76% and then I just got a kick track and a bass track lol. ?


(ffx) #78

I want to let the Renoise team know that today I am missing sidechain in Renoise compressors, again! I really like their sound. But there are scenarios in which a sidechain is required. So many things would be possible.


(somemoron) #79

Hi all,

I’ve been struggling to get this working for the last couple of days - it seems that as soon as i add Sendit and set it to receive, my CPU just goes nuts until Renoise stops. I’m just testing with 2 instances of Zebra, attempting to route audio from one track to another and during the short time before Renoise stops, I get nothing

I set up the same as Ledger’s screenshots (thanks Ledger!) but routed straight from “Sendit: receive channel 1” to my audio output in Metaplugin but got no signal on channel 2

I’m running Windows 7 on an I7 processor with 64bit everything so I feel like I must be doing something wrong if I can’t run even one instance of this on my machine

I saw Ledger also suggested using the “Auto suspend plugin when silent” option but I can’t find this. < edit: I found it, this was already enabled, as was multiprocessor support > If the CPU normally skyrockets when the song stops, i wonder if, since it doesn’t seem to be receiving anything, this same effect is being seen in my track even though it’s not actually stopped.

I enabled “use static processing buffers” and now although I still have no signal, my CPU is coping>

I’ve tried reinstalling Metaplugin, leaving out all the 32 bit stuff just to make sure i’m not mixing my bits and the usual reboot everything drill has been done

Thanks to EnergyCrush’s excellent work I am mere inches from Mmorphing my drums with my synths but I can’t quite seem to cross the finish line - any ideas would be very welcome!

<last edit : Living up to my name here, i just demonstrated my problem to a friend and it worked, very clicky but i was getting something, then i turned off “use static processing buffers” and suddenly everything’s fine! If anyone else has similar problems to me, the solution is tick and untick everything and then show your friend how it doesn’t work


(EnergyCrush) #80

Hey Mickey!

I think I got it now… But my CPU is on 76% and then I just got a kick track and a bass track lol.

Man…yeah, that is extreme. I haven’t hit that yet. I have seen that Renoise treats plugins differently from other VST hosts in a few ways, and though it seems to have gotten better over time, it leads to some pretty borked behavior…VSTs that aren’t explicitly stopped when space bar is used to stop, failure to retrigger VST sync, high CPU on many plugins (for example, Sonarworks) compared to other DAWs, etc. I haven’t seen it that high on my system, and am not sure why, but I’m not falling out of my chair surprised.

I want to let the Renoise team know that today I am missing sidechain in Renoise compressors, again! I really like their sound. But there are scenarios in which a sidechain is required. So many things would be possible.

Deaf ears man. It’s like waiting to spot BigFoot. It’s like with DAWs the options are a ) full featured and regularly updated, b ) reasonably priced, c ) actually awesome to use: pick 2.