During translating the Quickstart into japanese (btw, please wait some more days to complete ),
I feel that something confusing during I use the big Editor mode.
Sometimes I cannot recognize which a key I should trigger to hear the wanted sound if I open the Waveform (I’ve experienced that phrases were triggered unexpectedly). So I have to try hitting my midi-keaboard something straying blindly, then finally Inoticed that I should turn the trigger mode off, for example.
But simply, there is the answer in the Compact mode.
When I use the Compact mode, I feel it comfortable no matter how I change the trigger mode,
since I can see the keyboard-info which shows assigned keys.
Also, I can notice easily which trigger mode I use now.
So I think, the keyboard-info on the Compact mode is also necessary on the Editor mode.
The HEX Learning-helper is well designed and considered, but it’s not much necessary for a veteran user.
I think it’s better to be selectable (switch-able).
During translating the Quickstart into japanese (btw, please wait some more days to complete ),
I feel that something confusing during I use the big Editor mode.
Sometimes I cannot recognize which a key I should trigger to hear the wanted sound if I open the Waveform (I’ve experienced that phrases were triggered unexpectedly). So I have to try hitting my midi-keaboard something straying blindly, then finally Inoticed that I should turn the trigger mode off, for example.
This is actually not something new and exclusive to Redux - rather, it’s how phrases interact with the keyboard: when you have a phrase mapped to the keyboard, playing the keyboard will also trigger the phrase. Both Redux and Renoise are working identically here.
Only in two cases would a mapped/active phrase not be played from the computer keyboard: when phrases are completely disabled (OFF), or while the phrase editor is open - otherwise, you couldn’t hear notes as you are entering them, which would make editing very complicated (this was tried during alpha testing and quickly dropped).
But simply, there is the answer in the Compact mode.
When I use the Compact mode, I feel it comfortable no matter how I change the trigger mode, since I can see the keyboard-info which shows assigned keys.
The compact mode, with its ability to highlight which keys are mapped to samples, and even better, which notes are affected by a phrase, is a great addition
But it does not change how Redux is responding to notes when compared to being in the waveform editor - I wonder if you were simply confused by the fact that you are looking at a waveform, expecting to trigger this but instead, got a phrase to start playing? There is this saying, “out of sight, out of mind” - in this case, not looking at a waveform changed your expectations.
By the way: having samples triggering by the keyboard - from the selected point, and with transpose - are a highly requested feature in itself. Just ask DJ Terrabyte and some others
Ahh, maybe my explanation was somewhat pointless.
Actually I want to tell devs that I feel somewhat “blindly” or “unfriendly” while I’mon the big Editor mode.
The info of which a key I hit currently and where samples are assigned are useful when using sampler.
Also, showing how widely the samples of drumkit are assigned, showing big key-image include little octave-info when I’m in Keymap mode, both are kindly helpful.
And I (as a long time Renoiser) can’t find the merit which is superior to these, in the HEX lerning helper display.
So, I can understand the HEX display is shown by default, it’s insisting “This software is PC-keyboard driven”.
But I think that it should not be forced on all users all the time.
Hmm, maybe though, how about these auto-change ideas?
~~1st idea:
Usually the Piano Keyboard is displayed.
Only if the “Edit mode is ON”, then the Lerning Helper is displayed.~~
2nd idea:
When the Phrase Tab is opened, then the Learning Helper is displayed.
When the other Tabs are opened, then the Piano Keyboard is displayed.
Personally, when I’m in the Keymap mode on the Phrase Tab, I want to see the bigPiano Keys (but I cannot see it by this idea).
But this idea is easy to understand, since the display-change shows the same as the behavior of the PC-keyboard.
Figure for sorting out my brain:
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And, this is an additional request though,
if this selectable suggestion is adopted, it’s nice if the bottom right corner is expanded for displaying big keyboard. (maybe it’s overdoing though… :rolleyes: )
Personally, when I’m in the Keymap mode on the Phrase Tab, I want to see the bigPiano Keys (but I cannot see it by this idea).
But this idea is easy to understand, since the display-change shows the same as the behavior of the PC-keyboard.
There idea here was that whenever the hex keys are visible (the honeycomb thing), the computer keyboard keys can be used in Redux too.
So they are not visible when the computer keyboard is redirected to the host (to play/stop the song in the host and so on). So they are not only a visual aid for the phrase editor, but should indicate that the computer keyboard does something in Redux currently.
This was important for us to make clear, because you usually don’t use the computer keyboard in plugins.
In previous (alpha) versions of Redux we had a switch which toggled between the hex keys and a piano, which also toggled if the keyboard works in Redux or in the host. This ended up in lots of WTF “why is my keyboard not working here” (in Redux, or the host - depending on what you currently want to do).
It gets even more confusing when hosts use a different layout to trigger notes with the computer keyboard. For example, Ableton Live triggers notes with the computer keyboard to, but uses a one-octave layout instead of the two octave layout in Renoise/Redux.
Ahh, if the devs have already tried the switching Keyboard and it didn’t work well, then I can understand in the current state. I also feel there is no perfect solution for this, more drastic change may be necessary (and it’s too late for now, maybe ).
Personally I was able to finally sort out my head after I made an upper figure.
Still I feel something uncomfortable with using the same buttons and behaving different ways, though.
But I can live with it as it is.
Well, Redux is currently no different from Renoise in this aspect.
Yes, the keyboard looks different with those hex-shaped keys, but the functionality is the same: in the phrase editor, they trigger samples. Everywhere else. they trigger phrases (if you’ve got some).
What the alpha version did have was a manual switch. The switch would give the plugin the choice between accepting keyboard input (hex) or passing on to the host (piano). This was confusing for the reasons taktik just mentioned.
I think a better approach would be to have an “autoswitching” layout. Fundamentally, Redux should always accept keyboard input in the expanded mode (like it currently does), but switch between hex and piano keyboard layouts, depending on the active middle tab - whenever you find yourself in the phrase editor, the hex keys will accompany you.
This would underscore the fact that the keyboard acts differently in the phrase editor, that hex keys are related to phrases. And it would showcase that beautiful new piano layout some more as well
Probably, danoise’s thought is the same as mine (if I don’t misunderstand your English).
when the [Phrase Tab] is opend, then we see the honeycomb-display.
when the other [Keyzones], [Waveform], [Modulation], [Effects] tabs are opened, then we see the piano-display.
both are automatically.
(what you mean is this, isn’t it?? )
Well, let me try (maybe last try ) to add some more reasons to danoise’s thought why I think it’s better too.
To let users notice that they should use the PC-keyboard for phrase editing, the honeycomb-display should be shown in the [Phrase Tab].
To let users notice that the behavior of the PC-keyboard in the [Phrase Tab] and [Other Tabs] are different a bit, it had better change the honeycomb to piano when we move to the [Other Tabs], to show “something changed”. That is, “we should show [Phrase Tab] is something special” on the Redux GUI.
(the difference I mean here is, we cannot trigger phrases via PC-keyboard when we are in the [Phrase Tab], in spite of we choose Program or Keymap. This is one of the cause I was confused, same button different behavior.)
the piano-display is suitable to express the 3 trigger-modes more or less(try current compact mode especially with a drumkit, it’s more understand-able what you are doing now in each trigger-mode than the honeycomb).
And when using PC-Keyboard, 3 trigger-modes are effective in the [Other Tabs] but not in the [Phrase Tab] . So,on the [Other Tabs],the piano-display is more suitablethan the honeycomb-display.
Simply, for veteran users, the info (assigned area, basenote point, octave number, hitting response) on the piano-display are useful than the honeycomb-display.
If you still worry about the users who usually don’t use PC-Keyboard might be confused, you can set the honeycomb-display in all tabs by default. Then such auto-change option set to the another option in Preferences for example.
Well, my bullet ran out in this…
Anyway, I admit it’s still something complicated, I think myself. Finally I respect taktik’s choice.
Sorry for posting again and again…
Today I notice that the real solution for my confusion.
The behavior of the trigger mode buttons should be the same in all Tabs (include Phrase Tabs) when using PC-Keyboard.
the current “Off” button: this should be called “Sample Trigger” button.
the current “Program” button: this should be called “Phrase Trigger” button.
the current “Keymap” button is ok as it is.
Then in the Phrase Editor, we should use “Sample Trigger” button for input note-data.
and we can playback the phrase by using “Phrase Trigger” button.
I think this is the most understandable behavior.
The behavior of the trigger mode buttons should be the same in all Tabs (include Phrase Tabs) when using PC-Keyboard.
You need to be able to hear samples before recording them, and more options will just make this more difficult. As mentioned in post #2, something like this was attempted during alphas and quickly dropped.
Somehow I get the impression that it’s really important for you to play back the phrase, using the PC keyboard and no matter what tab you are on?
Don’t forget that you’re able to trigger the phrase via your host/master keyboard (transposed, with velocity) or via the play button/keyboard shortcut in Redux (basenote, full volume). Both works, no matter what tab is selected.
I think we just need to make it as obvious as possible what the PC keyboard does at any given moment. Which is why I’m all +1 for the idea to make the hex keyboard exclusive to the phrase tab. But the actual functionality IMO doesn’t need to change.
Excuse me, I know that I’m posting the topic that considerably deviated from this topic title.
But I cannot stop posting this because this is the cause of my confusion like I posted above.
So please be patient a bit more.
You need to be able to hear samples before recording them, and more options will just make this more difficult. As mentioned in post #2, something like this was attempted during alphas and quickly dropped.
Hmm, I cannot get what you mean at all, no offence, simply I cannot understand what is “difficult”.
I feel that current behavior is more difficult for me. Saying more exactly, something is “unnatural” or “distorted”.
I tried to sort out the workflow which I believe natural, by making the figure below.
If you devs adopt something like this Trigger system, you can use the same behavior wherever you are in any Tabs, PC-keyboard or MIDI keyboard, all cases are the same.
Also, user can operate it on the will easily (at least the will of the user is reflected. I believe it’s important.).
Hmm, devs, please re-think. Or please point out what is a problem concretely.
I really don’t understand why you need the current complex behavior.
Well, my opinion may be the minority, but let me add some more words.
Now I can explain why I was straying in the big Editor of Redux. Please see this figure;
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[1] is my recommended system. I feel it’s natural since it’s the same as Renoise.(I mean the traditional workflow of Renoise, not Phrase.)
[2] is the current Redux system. For example:
first, I make an instrument in the [Waveform] and [Modulation] etc.
next, I want to make a Phrase, so go to [Phrases] tab, but the place will be “Off”.
so, I change the Trigger-mode to “Program”, then edit a Phrase.
mmm, I want to edit the Modulation a bit more, so back to [Modulation] again.
but the place will be “Program”, so I trigger the Phrase unexpectedly instead the Instrument, in spite of I triggered the instrument until just before that.
like this case, I think that the workflow line is somewhat twisted in the current Redux.
So I easily lost “what I’m doing now”. As the result, I was confused a bit and posted this topic with saying “give me more info on the GUI please !!”.
Also I can explain why I was comfortable on the Compact-mode, because the Compact-mode doesn’t have the Phrase Editor. My will was never twisted.
Well, simply we had better change the current behaviour, I imho.
Maybe we will lose the unique advanced combo like: one hand editing a Phrase (via PC-keys) and the other hand triggering the Phrase (via MIDI-keys).
But even this combo, it’s difficult for new-commers and if it’s very needed we can add such advanced option in the future.
But if devs choice is no or it’s hard to do technically, I will give up simply.
Btw, if the official documents and tutorial movies are making already (by Achenar and Danoise?) , I only can say sorry for the late suggestion . But, I think that the wound is slight now. Please re-think only some more days.
P.S. in my real life, my grandmother passed away in yesterday night. Not so sad at all since she is 98 years old and we are all calm. But I leave internet about 2 days. Well, I wrote here that all I want to say, so I think no problem. Regards.
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. But, I think that the wound is slight now. Please re-think only some more days.