All of them that do not convert 
Totally agree! But beware, some users here are on a mission to have it changed back to 2.8 gui style.
Vsti is easy too. You can get to the editor directly from the instrument icon.
No you inferred that time spent on Redux was wasted time that should be spent on making Renoise the only app that it’s users would ever need (So performance mode ala Live/FLS/Possibly Bitwig, mix and routing options ala Reaper/PT and such, Linear arranging + piano roll ala everything else, Hard disk recording in a linear editing fashion ala everything else)
That is not going to happen and would take the devs a lot of years to achieve (Look at the joke Bitwig has become because they where silly enough to announce to early)
You also inferred that they could add something that would make non users look into using the app (OK name one unique thing they could add to Renoise that hasn’t been done in all the other big apps, oh wait that’s right a tracker, you know, it is already unique, if you want it in your toolkit you will try it, done)
But wait, the devs thought "How do we get others on board who aren’t really getting the tracker vibe, lets give them a big portion of the app to use in their main app and not have to waste extra development time on it (You do realize that anything they add in Redux gets added to Renoise right ? it is part of Renoise pretty much wrapped in a VSTi container)
The truth at this point is pretty obvious, Redux is an extremely clever step, they have modularized part of Renoise and by doing so have probably solidified the future of the app you love so much (Renoise)
PS i mentioned a performance mode above, to be completely fair here a latch mode could probably be scripted for MIDI triggers ? and that would be all that is now needed for a performance mode, we already have synced loops + Latch and you have performance mode, we now have triggering sequences via MIDI (Phrases) + latch and you have performance mode, truth is that when somebody writes a nice launchpad plugin for V3, a lot of people are going to sh*t.
However again coming back to Redux, Redux will be the better option for a lot of people for performance mode, Why ? Simply because running Redux in a sequencer and then doing the performance thing, you will be able to record your performances as MIDI sequences in your sequence for playback and editing (Redux in Maschine is going to be ones seriously messed up performance tool)
That is totally my mistake… I’m tying to quit cig smoking… LOL, I haven’t smoked in a month, but my concentration is totally screwed up these days. A simple mistake…
Fixed
It is a little awkward I suppose…
I think the software’s user base grows with Redux. I think the vast majority of producers nowadays, the fresh/new/next and younger generation age 16 - 30 have never produced with trackers, and Redux because it is a vst will become a very appealing entry level offering.
Growing the user base, and community is definitely good for Renoise.
Furthermore, for the people who are already long term users of Renoise, but also use other daw software, Redux will allow greater integration…
Not necessary wasted but it was a thought of mine. No we can’t have ALL that instead of Redux, of course not. But maybe ONE of the features to begin with, and maybe many users would appreciate it more than going to buy another daw just to get .
New features doesn’t need to be unique to appeal users as some of the big features in the want lists exist in the most other daws. Renoise is already unique and would probably be even more unique if for instance a piano roll was integrated in a clever way with the existing workflow of renoise and renoise as a tracker.
Sorry but your entire argument can not be taken as serious while you keep adding
You are making a wild assumption about the lost development hours on a plugin (Redux) that has not even been worked on yet and never backing up by stating what YOU believe to be the most important feature they should have worked on.
Ask ten users of any software what there top missing feature is and you will get ten different answers, so your is a major cop out
If you are simply saying “Piano roll should be added before they start work on a VSTi” then do so
Redux isn’t wasted time at all, it´s a very smart and ambitious move from the devs, where everybody wins :
-Other DAWs users, which will be renoised in their own DAW
-devs, with a market which suddenly grows from trackers/curious users to… Everybody ! And by selling a whole new product, they’ll get billions of dollars, girls and fame
-Renoise users, because I will have the possibility ( at last ! ) to share my stuff with other people who don’t use Renoise ( 99% of the world ), without painfully trying to make them use it… They will come naturally now 
Now the devs have to make Renoise 3 as intuitive as it used to be ( since 1.xx ) by improving the GUI, and since I’m sure they’ll do, they will get a lot of new users. The devs aren’t stepping away from Renoise IMO, this is just a clever way to make some renoise marketing by capitalizing on its originality, and at the same time being paid for it !
But since Renoise will get a whole new visibility, I think devs need to polish the beta more than ever so the new users will have the best Renoise experience… Don’t let them be afraid by the GUI please
Redux vst for people looking to incorpoorate tracking in their daw = perfect
But the most important reason why the majority is not using renoise is because it’s a tracker .
I can’t see why all of a sudden they would go berserk when redux comes out , it was the tracker interface that kept them away in the first place .
The new instrument design might be appealing , but they have to learn to use the tracker interface for that …and were back at the beginning …
I’m pretty sure the devs planned Redux to be be a gateway drug. Hope it hooks up some unsuspecting horizontalites.
Bungle, the whole purpose of my original post was to find out if people would rather see the development time going into the Redux plugin or into THEIR feature of choice. That’s exactly why I keep having the “feature” floating free and not defined.
If you want to know what specific feature I’d like to see before a Redux plugin, sure.
Actually not a piano roll, but still found in it’s idea thread. This excellent idea of being able to easy adjust note position/timing: Brainstorming: Piano Roll
No, at first they’re like “oh, it’s full of numbers, I don’t get it” and go to a more visually appealing DAW. But the ones who’ll try Redux are the ones who will be specifically looking for a sampler ( not a main DAW ) where Renoise / Redux is unmatched, and they’ll get the tracker approach with phrases and stuff… And won’t be afraid of using Renoise anymore.
I don’t think it’s the tracker approach which keep people away from Renoise, but the fact that it´s abstract : you can’t visualize waveforms, or notes, or an instrument icon, all you see are numbers. But once they’ll get the good sides of it with Redux in their OWN DAW ( it’s an invasion ! ), they’ll think twice.
Well, hopefully. At least it’s worth trying.
another option migh have been creating a new piano roll daw, based on renoise components
or doubling the price instead of doubling the user base
Indeed it’s the abstract aspect of Renoise that’s keeping people away from it, but as you also suggest: when more and more people will mangle samples in Redux (which other samplers can manipulate samples in the way Renoise can? - Answer: None) the distance will be shorter and shorter for them to try out Renoise as well.
My hope is that future Renoise 3.x versions will focus on the Content Libraries stuff, making Renoise the factory host for Redux library productions. We see this kind of concept in many other audio tools on the market today as well (Kontakt Player - full version Kontakt, REX loops and full version ReCycle etc). I’m extremely happy to see a product like Redux is finally becoming a reality, and I wish the Renoise developers much fame and fortune! 
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I’ll certainly do my best to support them in every possible way I can. Probably I’ll focus on producing some Youtube videos and introducing the Redux stuff for the DAW crowds I know best (just hoping they’ll add me to the list of alpha testers for Redux).
Is that so? It seems that Redux will mainly bring Renoise’s sampler to other DAWs. And I cannot see why I would use the Renoise sampler as a VSTi in another DAW. If I have to use an external VSTi sampler anyway, then I would just use a more powerful one (some of which are actually freeware, at least on some OS).
Well, the phrases of the sampler will bring a bit of tracking for arpeggios at least, that is true…
Renoise slicing is on par with Recycle… The slicing is really what makes a sampler… Not, “the delay, chorus, or reverb.”
The slicing is the most important part. + Renoise keymap is pro level key mapping…
@fladd because imho there is no better way to make rhytms/ beats/ than with a tracker …+ if redux has midi out .to control other vsti’s…
Redux as vst in audiomulch …OOHHYEAH
It’s not about the sliccesssss…
It’s all about the effect commmandssss
I think it will also have the tracker sequencer
Last post for today …
Have a look at vember audio short cirquit 1.1.2 (not 2.0 ) …it’s amazing and free ( developers is now working at bitwig )
Anyway about shortcirquit ,the way it handles slices , per sclice you can assign any parameter off any selected dsp block (filter, ring, effects etc …) …and there are lot’s of them …and high quality
http://www.vemberaudio.se/shortcircuit.php
The clues about Redux are actually there, out in the open, as the instrument section in Renoise is now completely self-contained - this is probably the part that Redux will offer as a VST/AU version. Which basically means that we’ll be able to trigger 120 phrases by drawing the triggering/corresponding note in the DAW pianoroll or recording it through the MIDI keyboards.
The effect commands and the phrases are indeed the strengths of such a sampler plugin, along with the macros. Take a look at other samplers like for example Vengenace’s Phalanx (which cost $259 for the basic version) and we soon realise that Redux could excel beyond contemporary samplers. Building content library drumkits and loops with the phrases will be a very appealing concept to many people, there’s no doubt about that if we take a look at the current market. Sure, there are more advanced samplers around, but Redux will most likely take the leading position as the high precision effect command level sample manipulation plugin, as this is the single feature that makes trackers much different from conventional DAWs and samplers.
EDIT: Phalanx is $259 not £259, a typo there
Modulation and using your own VST effects can be experienced as powerful as well…
Its really about the whole being more than the sum of its parts. Cause those only work because the thing slices so well; and that is only cool cause the fx commands, and those are only great because you can sequence on the pattern editor, and now in the phrase editor… Etc, etc…
I was shocked when I read this… Actually, its 259 dollars… Still, “everything vengeance is incredibly overpriced and silly.”