Roadmap for the next release?

Help, Support & Bugs
20

“Audio tracks or a Piano Roll(…)after the 3.1 release.” - taktik 2015

source: http://ow.ly/103lhL

And this is exactly why developers do not bother talking to their users, developer says one thing “STFU until after we release 3.1” users who are starved of any interaction from developers “OMG OMG OMG piano roll or Audio Tracks after 3.1”

And me using quotes that are nothing like the originals completely proves the misunderstand/misquote dilemma

Re-read it

Is development going to get any faster than the previous and current snail trail “To double the output of what we are currently doing, I’d guess we’d roughly need 4-8 times more people working on the same things that we are currently working on. Reason for this is the project’s complexity and its dependencies. And for a niche product like Renoise this simply is not very realistic” Notice “And for a niche product like Renoise this simply is not very realistic”

Development will not get faster, Renoise is Niche (Read doesn’t sell vast amounts allowing more developers to join the team)

"Audio tracks or a Piano Roll would not change that :wink:

But this is for another time to discuss and evaluate - after the 3.1 release."

Discuss and evaluate does not mean it is coming, does not mean that it is even on the cards, it quite literally means, lets talk about it, and then decide.

With 14+ years of talking already under its belt on this subject, lets safely assume the decision was made a long time ago, either it is not going to happen because they have no interest/not capable/would take too long (Take your pick and do as you please)

However, the troubling thing here is the complete lack of confidence the developer has in the product “Audio tracks or a Piano Roll would not change that” the fact that giving Renoise the same features as other sustainable nay megaprofitablehosts will not change its current Niche standing in the developers eyes, worrying at best, and would suggest nothing more than ever being a fanciful past time project.

A lot more people will buy VST over a Tracker (OK they chose the sampler first, personally i think that was a poor choice, way too many samplers all released at similar times to Redux, and it pretty much generated zero hype)

Release the FX as a cheap plugin suite

Release the tracker a s a cheap step sequencer plugin

Redux sample engine already exists

Then you have the ability to use Redux/Renoise sequencer/ Renoise FX all in a real linear DAW that already has Piano roll and audio tracks.

For the record, take a guess (It is actually very easy) which do you think is more well known, Illformed Glitch 2 or Renoise (One is spoken about regularly on lots of forums all over the internet, the other is a tracker hahahaha)

Tracker users and their little bubble of reality are actually quite funny

They ignore the fact that Renoise is a tracker and such a niche product that it has little interest to most music makers (It would take Piano roll/Audio Tracks and a linear arranger to change this, this is simply not going to happen, the developers would be old and grey before they pulled that off, they simply aren’t fast enough at developing, the product they currently have is so niche they cant get more developers, the Renoise paradox, which is unfortunate considering Renoise with a piano roll/linear arranger/audio tracks would probably be one of the best hosts on the market and generate huge hype, the Renois paradox, add to this the lead developers lack of confidence in adding these things changing Renoises niche status, you pretty much have everything you need to see that Renoise as a host is stagnant)

They ignore the fact that most Tracker users are quite happy using whatever free tracker is currently flavour of the month

They ignore the fact that even the lowliest of linear arrangers nowadays has just as much control over micro editing as a tracker does

Breaking out Renoises features as plugins will probably allow one really important thing, Renoise developers to continue what they do, yes they are extremely slow, yes it is niche, but plugins are not, in fact they are even geekdom collectable now, some people just buy them so they complete their collections (Sad but true) put the FX out at $30 for the entire set, maybe even have some simple modular wrapper to combine them in interesting ways, bam, yes they are not the best effects in the world, but the collection is vast, the UI is actually very easy on the eyes, and at the end of all things they work.

21

And this is exactly why developers do not bother talking to their users, developer says one thing "STFU until after we rel

this is exactly why Ihide your posts :wink:

Edit: Bungle: this is how it works http://i.imgur.com/NteHPZt.pngHave a nice day.

22

this is exactly why Ihide your posts :wink:

No you don’t, or you couldn’t reply, but enjoy being silly if that is what keeps you happy.

23

They ignore the fact that Renoise is a tracker and such a niche product that it has little interest to most music makers (It would take Piano roll/Audio Tracks and a linear arranger to change this, this is simply not going to happen, the developers would be old and grey before they pulled that off, they simply aren’t fast enough at developing, the product they currently have is so niche they cant get more developers, the Renoise paradox, which is unfortunate considering Renoise with a piano roll/linear arranger/audio tracks would probably be one of the best hosts on the market and generate huge hype

Yes, this is a paradox and it’salsovery sad. Renoise with a piano roll, audio tracks and linear arranger would indeed probably be one of the best hosts on the market and generate huge hype. It is very unfortunate that such features are too difficult for the devs to implement (i.e. takes too much time, I don’tquestion their coding skills).

But let’s hope that they choose to break out the pattern editor / tracker sequencer and make an even cooler alternative to Image-Line’s Minihost Modular…

EDIT:

For some reason, I’m not really satisfied with this above conclusion. So I stroke those words through. Can’t really put my fingers on what it is…But a rhetorical question: IfBitwig or Cubase or any other conventional DAW addedtheir owntrackerpattern editors, would thatsomehow render Renoiseobsolete?

24

Mooooore macros! wit knobs sliders and buttons, maybe some importable GUI.jpg for macros page !!!

25

More like Renoise 3.2 trolling thread am I right?

  • Once time, I saw a piano roll in an alpha.
  • Take it from a guy who saw Lua to script DSPs in there too.
  • Audiotracks.
26

More like Renoise 3.2 trolling thread am I right?

  • Once time, I saw a piano roll in an alpha.
  • Take it from a guy who saw Lua to script DSPs in there too.
  • Audiotracks.

The alpha team must have seen a lot of prototype features. Good for you and them. I just wonder what would have happened to Renoise if martinal’s original piano roll concept was implemented back in the days? And audiotracks… maybe Renoise would be more like a company such as Propellerheads or Ableton, each with 50+ employees.

What I’ve always wondered though… Renoise coders are located in Berlin, at least I get the impression taktik pays the rent forsome nominal office space in some business park somewhere in Berlin. And then you have lots of other cool audio softwarecompanies located in Berlin as well. Would it be a silly thought to imagine the possibility of taktik making some phone calls or visits to Bitwig orU-he in Berlin, or even PreSonus in Hamburg, and then implementing this new feature called “partnership”?

Why the desert island approach? There was a time when the integrity of the tracker seemed like a real issue, and we’re all glad that thetrackerapproach was prioritized rather than the let’s-clone-the-conventional-DAW approach. Today however,with Renoise soon to celebrate 14 years of development, it seems like there must be at least some interest from other companies, given the unique features of Renoise and the huge potential of the software.

27

A piano roll is the most useless feature ever for renoise. Renoise is a tracker. There is no need to split note pitch to one axis. Who needs that? It’s a pre-historic concept. Also there are plenty of piano roll DAWs, simply use that. You could improve visuality in Renoise by using resizable blocks for notes instead “note-off”.

Renoise is still lacking of elementary functionality like

  • side chaining / support for 3/4th fx audio input

  • dry/wet amount

  • mid/side functionality

  • advanced quantization, groove per track

  • midi recording finesse likeadvanced quantization while recording

  • edit beyond pattern boundaries

  • simple dragging of notes in subline context

  • midi fx

  • midi generator to different midi channels

  • proper volume meter

  • gui mainly graphics accelerated, overhauled refresh system, no more nasty slowdowns caused by the gui (though its the fastest cpu driven gui I ever have seen)

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A piano roll is the most useless feature ever for renoise. Renoise is a tracker. There is no need to split note pitch to one axis. Who needs that? It’s a pre-historic concept. Also there are plenty of piano roll DAWs, simply use that. You could improve visuality in Renoise by using resizable blocks for notes instead “note-off”.

What exactly does it mean that “Renoise is a tracker”? What defines the technical and user interfaceramifications ofa tracker that makes it incompatible with conventional DAW concepts? What ifone of the piano roll DAWs also implemented areplica of Renoise’spattern editor for alpha numeric representation of notes, would it then become a tracker?

Oh well. We already have had long threads in the past where people have debated features XYZ. Now it’s time to discuss the means to realize ANY of those features AT ALL. Because this is what some people in this thread are concerned about: the Renoise paradox and how to solve it.

Read what the devs saythemselves

Another reason why we wanted to concentrate on Redux, was also to expand into a new market. We’re a small team. A very small one actually. Renoise is an extreme niche product while also being a hell to manage. We love what we do, working on Renoise, but we also can’t do this job for nothing. So the idea of a new product, Redux, also, even though not primarily, was favored as well in order to keep Renoise alive in the long term.

This exact argument is the only thing that matters, really. So, if the devs finally comeoutin 2018andadmits “We love working on Renoise the tracker, but also need the financial resources to do so, that’s why we’ll now finallygo for the conventional DAW stuff likea linear arranger, piano roll and audio tracks - in order to expand our market shares, since that’s what will get 99.9% of all music producers on that marketto not feel alienated by Renoise. But don’t worry, this new compiled Renoise version will be sold as a separate product, so if you can’t stand piano rolls you’ll still have Renoise the tracker. The pile of money we’ll make will of course help to keep the tracker project alive for a long time.”

It’s as simple as that, really.No need to argue for features XYZ being worthless for userswho can onlycope with"the tracker", whatever that is.

I would personally applaudif the devs decided togo for any of these four possibilities:

  1. open up a full-blown C++ Renoise API and made it possible forthird partiesto grab the note dataand audio streams from Renoise, manipulate it, andget it backinto Renoise(no, not in the ReWire sense, but bi-directional and with everything required to e.g. build a linear arranger or piano roll outside of Renoise).

  2. use the ARA technology and partner with PreSonus Studio One, or partner up with Bitwig and build a bridge between Renoise and Bitwig Studio.

3)break out the pattern editor & tracker sequencer andFX stuffand sellthem as a separate plugins à la Redux.

  1. expand Redux into being alsoa host plugin for VST instruments and a MIDI data tracker.
29

No, tracker is tracker, pianolol is pianolol.
Pianoroll is anti-ergonomic, a time killer and an enemy of human nature in general, because of

  1. horizontal scrolling (very unnatural for human eye). (Ask yourself why excel doesn’t scroll horizontally!)

  2. Piano gfx pitch representation on the left, you always have to follow the line to find the correct pitch. C’mon, be honest, if you add all time you lost to move a note to the proper pitch in a piano roll, you quickly come to a year of manpower.

  3. It is a crazy waste of gui space! To all devs worldwide: no, adding scrollbars doesn’t help at all! Remove the vertical pitch axis and the piano on the left, write the note pitch in text into the bars - THAT is a good start for a better concept and would also work directly in the main overview…but… What do we have Then? Oh, yes, a tracker view rotated by 90 degrees!

  4. You hardly can edit more than one instrument side-by-side. Layered piano roll is the shit. It doesn’t help at all, it’s a lazy workaround of the developers who are too lazy to find a better concept. That is the reason why your composition in pianolol-daw usually sounds so silly! Of course you can workaround by using midi input recording - gosh!

  5. It is an insult of everybody’s intelligence. It was made in last century by a drunken developer at Steinberg anno 1979, for piano starters. And as you know, Steinberg never changes an old concept. That doesn’t mean at all that it is good.

Be honest, did you ever made a nice melody just in the piano roll in no time? of course not. Did you made in a tracker like renoise? Yes of course! In 30 seconds!

30

So… Hanz Meyzer is Hanz Meyzer, and Hanz Meyzer™ is Hanz Meyzer™? They can’t co-exist within the same entity?

31

Touché! :slight_smile:

32

A piano roll is the most useless feature ever for renoise. Renoise is a tracker. There is no need to split note pitch to one axis. Who needs that? It’s a pre-historic concept. Also there are plenty of piano roll DAWs, simply use that. You could improve visuality in Renoise by using resizable blocks for notes instead “note-off”.

Renoise is still lacking of elementary functionality like

  • side chaining / support for 3/4th fx audio input

  • dry/wet amount

  • mid/side functionality

  • midi fx

  • midi generator to different midi channels

  • proper volume meter

Really ?

Renoise already supports MIDI FX

Perhaps you are confused, oh wait piano roll is the most useless feature ever, yes you are confused hahaha

33

No, Renoise only supports MIDI generators, not insert midi fx.

34

I just updated my post with fundamental features missing, above. See it as a roadmap for the upcoming renoise version. Also updated my final piano roll payoff. It’s obligatory read for all daw devs worldwide!

35

My prognosis :slight_smile:

Renoise: Difficult to milk this cow any further without trying to compete with conventional DAWs, which might be a task that is too big. However, there are details in the production aspect that has been overseen and could be improved (mixing console, more dsp chain modularity, m/s capabilities as mentioned earlier). Not sure this will lead to a significantly bigger market share, though. Chances are devs will continue focusing on the sampler/instrument as this will benefit redux as well. In other aspects, updates will probably be “nice” but probably not revolutionary or truly expanding the software as this would take too much dev time.

Redux: Will be streamlined to also act as a replacement for piano rolls in other DAWs (modern reViSiT). Great times and everything is forgiven.

36

Joule, i am afraid that you reflected taktik s thoughts quite exactly… :X

Well, I want to add here three ways to get more customers, let the perception of renoise become less a niche product :

  • make tracker view more graphical (mouse movable note bars etc), say bye bye to hex numbers, since you already lost here 1 billion customers. Make it an optional hex nerd/nostalgic jerk feature. The also means all automation to the graph, yes.

  • make at least minimal efforts to marketing, do cross promotions etc. No, just a news post to kvr is not enough. Maybe go to Musikmesse?

  • demo version needs more restrictions, getting rendering possibilities only isn’t enough stimulus for most users. Add a 30-day time limit for saving a song for example. Something that u can get for free is nothing worth to the people, the freeware Paradoxon

  • renoise can compete with major daws, even now.

37

Another brainstorming idea that most people probably find outlandish, but that I think potentially could increase the user base would be an intelligent arpeggiator integrated to the DAW. In other words, adding “chord recognition” to phrases or some kind of indexed note references when triggering phrases. With proper presets, Renoise could be used for ultra rapid prototyping of full arrangements (i e, striking a full arrangement by just entering a C major chord). Other DAWs are lacking in this area, but I’ve found that tools like these are major creativity boosters (varranger2, hw arrangers and “casio keyboards”).

38

I find it very interesting this post!I think many people are aware of the next version of Renoise, because version 3.1really is a joy, and people want more. Renoise is superb!We all want more,because it’s worth follow through.

I miss 3 things as priorities:

  1. A Advanced Automation Editor for editing ultrafast (before asking other heavier things better refine the existing ones).

2)A Native Arpeggiator , loaded in the section of track effects, in bottom frame (I will try to create a screenshot with this issue and I’ll upload).

3)A shortcut to compose a second song based on the first song finalized. Something that facilitates the creation of an album, with several songs that use the same instruments, same effects, etc.

  1. A fast function to erase the entire contents of tracks (the content written only, the notes, not the tracks).
  2. A fast function to erase the entire patterns ,leaving only the first pattern.
  • …in order to start a second new song with the intact layout of the first song,in order to keep the same sound It would be like quickly create a template based on a completed song (with all fixed) to start another song again and to give continuity to an album of songs.
39

About point two (native arpeggiator):https://forum.renoise.com/t/native-arpeggiator-concept-for-renoise/45854 :rolleyes: