Slices Not Saved To Wavefile (Wav Cue Markers)

[esaruoho]

Hi. if I’ve got a wavefile with slices in it, and save the wavefile, upon loading the wave to, say SampleManager (which can recognize slices), the wavefile status says 0 slices.

I guess Renoise saves SoundForge-compatible slices, but could the slices be more universal for the .wav format?

expected behaviour: save a wavefile with slice-markers, load same wavefile back to renoise, slice-markers show.
expected behaviour: create slice-markers (marker regions) with soundforge, load it into renoise, renoise reads and displays marker regions.

actual behaviour: renoise does not save slice-markers
actual behaviour: renoise does not load slice-markers/marker regions.

[Conner_Bw]

I’m not familiar with the specification but I see slices in Amadeus Pro, e.g. not SoundForge?

Is there more than one way to save slices? Maybe it’s a SampleManager issue?

[kazakore]

If you mean the Sliced samples I don’t think they get saved on any platform, they are not the same as the Markers you get when you Render a song.

[Conner_Bw]

@kazakore

If you mean the Sliced samples I don’t think they get saved on any platform, they are not the same as the Markers you get when you Render a song.

Yes, I’m talking markers when you render a song. Sorry for any confusion.

[esaruoho]

well, i don’t expect audacity to be able to handle slice markers.

kazakore, i’m not talking about drumkits i’m just talking about one sample that has slice markers

[kazakore]

@esaruoho

kazakore, i’m not talking about drumkits i’m just talking about one sample that has slice markers

Doesn’t matter if it’s a drum kit or any other sliced instrument as far as I know the slices are part of the Instrument, not the Sample, and thus not seen in anything outside of Renoise. In fact even loading the Sample (not Instrument) back into Renoise itself and I believe you will get just the Sample, no Slices.

[esaruoho]

yeah, saved some slice markers in sforge to a wavefile, loaded it into renoise and noticed they weren’t saved. then added some slice markers in renoise to that wavefile, saved that and loaded it in - they’re not saved, or loaded.
also, the sforge-saved-slice-markers- are discarded when renoise saves the wavefile

[vvoois (vV)]

Only loop-markers are supported.
But if you render your song, i believe sequencer positions are saved as marker points with the wave-file for other apps to read it (if they support it), perhaps you were confused with that feature?
It may perhaps not be a problem to save slice markers in a similar way along with the wave file.

[esaruoho]

@vV

Only loop-markers are supported.
But if you render your song, i believe sequencer positions are saved as marker points with the wave-file for other apps to read it (if they support it), perhaps you were confused with that feature?
It may perhaps not be a problem to save slice markers in a similar way along with the wave file.

i didn’t know one can render a song with markers, altho there’s a vague memory of seeing a screenshot, maybe?

however, being able to save slice markers in a similar way along with the wavefile being saved, would be quite handy. i know it’s a pretty obscure and arcane thing to request or post as a bug report…

[koppi]

@vV

Only loop-markers are supported.
But if you render your song, i believe sequencer positions are saved as marker points with the wave-file for other apps to read it (if they support it), perhaps you were confused with that feature?
It may perhaps not be a problem to save slice markers in a similar way along with the wave file.

Audacitiy developer explains the wav marker feature here: http://forum.audacit…t=55725#p138510

Although the Microsoft WAV format allows the “smpl” chunk (“cue” points are included in the “smpl” chunk), it does not define exactly what data is written there. The MIDI Manufacturer’s Association (MMA) allocates ID numbers to manufacturers who then have certain flexibility as to what data they include. This can lead to incompatibility between WAV loop files from different manufacturers. For example, Acid Loops and Apple Loops are significantly different, and unless an application specifically includes importers to handle these types they will not be interchangeable.

The smpl chunk is an optional data chunk that allows manufacturers to add custom data to suit their products and only some of the smpl data is standardised across the board. The only guaranteed way to correctly handle the loop data for specific hardware/software is to use the manufacturers loop editing tools. Adding partial support (just the common/standardised parts of the smpl chunk) would require a great deal of development work, and would still leave many users unhappy because of the unsupported features.

Addressing specific points:

For FluidSynth and other SoundFonts, there are specialist programs for dealing with this format, for example “Vienna” on Windows or Swami on Linux.

For proprietary formats such as GigaSampler, Sony Acid, Apple Loops, and so on, each manufacturer provides software to fully support their format. As an open source program it is quite likely that Audacity would run into licensing problems if it attempted to implement some of these formats.

If a loop sample is edited, it would not be sufficient for Audacity to simply retain the existing smpl data, as the editing is likely to make that data incorrect. For example, if the loop points are defined relative to the start of the sample, then changing the start point of the file will cause all loop data to reference the wrong positions, and may reference invalid positions beyond the end of the file. It would be necessary for Audacity to recalculate the smpl data, which means that it would need to understand the exact format used in the smpl chunk by each manufacturer. Manufacturers may also use data that is specific to specific samplers, which would make error checking of the data a total nightmare.

In short it is not as simple as it may seem.

[taktik]

We indeed can’t im/export all the info that a sliced info has with WAV files. It’s not just that and where a “marker” is, but also the key,vel sample mapping, transpose, volume and a bunch of other properties a sample and thus slice can have. But what definitely would not hurt, is saving the markers as WAV chunk “cues” when exporting the main sliced sample. We do use those cues already when rendering a song (add a “cue” marker for every start of a pattern). Please note that not many editors do support such “cue” markers.

What already works now, with any sample editor, is saving all slices sample as individual samples files in Renoise:
Right click on a sliced instrument’s sample list -> Click “Save all Samples…”. This will save slices of the instrument as individual sample file. Including loops and stuff, when present.

[kazakore]

@taktik

We indeed can’t im/export all the info that a sliced info has with WAV files. It’s not just that and where a “marker” is, but also the key,vel sample mapping…

Unless this is a hint at some of the changes for 2.8 the sample mapping (keyzone and velocity) are locked to Drum Kit settings for any sliced instrument.

For Importing (loading samples with options) a check-box for “Treat Markers as Slice points” may possibly be an idea? Maybe similar with Save With Options to export as Markers of the same type you get when Rendering a Song…

[taktik]

@kazakore

Unless this is a hint at some of the changes for 2.8 the sample mapping (keyzone and velocity) are locked to Drum Kit settings for any sliced instrument.

They are not locked. You can change the drum kit mappings for sliced samples already. But we’re splitting hairs now. Even if it’s not the note/vel map, then there are still a big bunch of other properties you can change per sample.

And well, as said above, such markers are rarely supported in other programs.

[kazakore]

@taktik

They are not locked. You can change the drum kit mappings for sliced samples already.

You can change the Drum Kit setting and reGenerate Drum Kit but you can not change the mappings as you want!

But we’re splitting hairs now. Even if it’s not the note/vel map, then there are still a big bunch of other properties you can change per sample.

Which are properties of the Instrument not the Sample! As are the Mapping options mentioned above.

And well, as said above, such markers are rarely supported in other programs.

As mentioned by yourself and koppi there are some difficulties. Although I don’t see the problem with a option to save the sample from a sliced instrument with markers the same as Render, nor the option to load a sample which already has markers with these as slice positions.