Spring Reverb

Ideas & suggestions
1

Spring Reverbs should be most rare amongs reverbs at all. You can count all existing (virtual of course) at one hand. Ok maybe both hands but than it’s over.

There are just :

  • PSP Springverb
  • Spirit Reverb (Aegean Music)
  • Spring Reverb (Softube)
  • the one that Guitar Rig offers
  • the one that Bazille (U-He) offers
  • Spring Reverb Type4 (GSi)
  • AKG BX 20 Spring Reverb (UA)
  • SpringAge (Overloud)

apart of these it gets hard to find anything else, well some IR’s which are very rare and hard to find. I only use that one that Bazille offers and it’s ok but I can’t use it on anything else than my Bazille synthesis. I can’t put it on a send bus. The one that comes as close as possible to a real one could be Spirit Reverb from Aegean Music - atleast from what I could hear via sound demos. Hear is a nice video that demonstrates it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcLRcXnJ0RA

The Spring Reverb is an essential plug in for whole music genres°! … there is no real Dub music without Spring Reverb… without this plug in the rastas won’t survive at all. U find it in almost all Reggae, Dub, Ska but also a lot of all kinds of music, no matter if rock, country etc There are countless examples of timeless tunes that got they place in history due to this effect. For example that one hit by the White Stripes and lots of more.

I think this could even drag a lot of producers to buy Renoise if some nice Spring Reverb would appear. With automizable SHAKE option … oh yeah… that would be crazy! :wub:

This would be my suggestion/idea of how to improve Renoise or how to make it even more attractive. Make it proper with nice algos for 1, 2 and 3 feathers and a parameter for tension of the feathers …ok ok enough of dreaming… but a clean sounding version with nice bass/treble knobs and shake would be so much fun on a send bus.

2

i think springs are not that straightforward to emulate… there’s a DAFX paper on spring reverbs, don’t remember exactly which one but it made my head explode :slight_smile:

might be not your cup of tea but there are some nice IR’s around (ex.http://www.dubbhism.org/2008/10/free-download-60-classic-and-king-tubby.html ),google is your friend.

also some springs i really like are those for nebula. be prepared to melt your CPU though, i can max a 4790 core with some of the nebula reverbs/springs. that said, cupwise color springs for vibey, VNXT BX15 & BX20 for hifi/beatiful. The VNXT’s are awesome and while i don’t have UA one, i compared the UA vs VNXT EMT 140 plate and the nebula is so much better in terms of realism/3D. Best plate i’ve heard ITB (edit: they technically still are impulses so not that flexible in terms of release)

3

If you own Reaktor there is also this one, which sounds pretty good. There is probably a few more in the user library. I also own the PSP Springverb and it’s quite nice, but i have no idea how it directly compares to a real unit.

4

Spring reverb will never come in Renoise as a native DSP.

5

If you own Reaktor there is also this one, which sounds pretty good. There is probably a few more in the user library. I also own the PSP Springverb and it’s quite nice, but i have no idea how it directly compares to a real unit.

+1 the spring in one of the reaktor space echo clones is cool too

6

the one that Bazille (U-He) offers

Bazille is a weird beast: patchable FM synth + spring reverb…

I think most spring reverbs are actually all sounding a little “samey”. Hard to nail the character of a real unit.

7

I think my own homemade spring reverb sounds way better than in that example video, it sounds too metallic and weird. I would hardly say my DIY spring reverb made from a salvaged spring unit from an old electric organ would come close to a professionally made one, so i think the Spirit plugin should be able to compete with it, but it doesn’t even come close IMO.

8

@ TheBellows

I’d love to build my own DIY spring reverb but I have almost no experience in building any elecronics. :unsure: Although I found some instructions online but lots of people commented that their efforts went out too noisy - soundwise.

@ danoise

I agree that the differences are not huge in the “basic” sound but for me there are some remarkable differences soundwise. For example the softube spring reverb got some parameters that all other don’t have. Parameters that alter the sound pretty noticeably. Here is a demonstration https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ez8rOW1gd check the tension parameter… Also the wheel for combining the 3 feathers… it makes so much sense to have these parameters in a spring reverb plug in & they change the sound colour in a unique way. Just the bass and treble parameters alter the sound dramatically. Still it doesn’t sound as wet and springy as Spirit Reverb IMO.

@ Beatslaughter

Unfortunately I don’t own Reaktor… (I really would like to get into it for years but still no have), so I can’t use that one thing for it, but from what I see, it does not have a shake option and that would mean atleast 50% less fun for me.

@ ffx_away

I know it seems like impossible. I know how long we all wait for an update of Renoise and I got aware of the new mood on the forum boards and all the critics but that is just a suggestion of how to attract really more people into Renoise. I believe that just with a spring reverb Renoise could become more popular. I can imagine that coding a spring reverb is a different league of coding, especially when realizing what Softube already did but I guess amongst Renoise coders are some excellent and best ones though. Some that are probably able to create such a suprise and maybe my suggestion could be an interesting idea for them.

@ neopan

thanks a lot for sharing that IR’s ! :slight_smile:

9

@ TheBellows

I’d love to build my own DIY spring reverb but I have almost no experience in building any elecronics. :unsure: Although I found some instructions online but lots of people commented that their efforts went out too noisy - soundwise.

I was actually very surprised how good my reverb sounded, i can’t remember noise was a problem. I’ve seen versions that does not use a preamplifier on the output and then it will probably sound much noisier, either that or bad circuitry, for instance if the amplifier introduces a lot of distortion you will end up with noisy sound. Sometimes all you need is a capacitor to filter the noise. Think of the part that receives the signal from the power amp as a speaker element, like in your laptop, if you bring the volume too loud it will sound awful. It’s not really the same here because a usual tank uses a rotary device to convert the audio to mechanical movement, so that there is principally no max volume limit.

Basically what you need is a simple amplifier circuit and a simple preamp circuit, the signal needs to go through a power amplifier to power the thing that makes the spring move, it transfers the vibrations through the spring to the thing that picks up the sound (It’s more or less identical to the previous thing, but is designed to pick up the vibrations and converts them back into electronic signals, the equivalent to a microphone) , then the signal needs to be amplified so that the signal gets strong enough to be picked up by your mixer. You can also easily add a mixing circuit that is adjustable with a potmeter, so it can go directly into your guitar amp or whatever.

If you check out stores like Aliexpress and such, you will find tons of small and ready made modules you can buy for next to nothing, buy a few amp modules, preamp modules, spring unit and power supplies/batteries (preamp and amp circuit may need to use each their own psu to avoid noise), hook them all together and experiment. Its easy!

You may even buy ready made tone control modules and such for some extra features. I would also recommend buying a cheap resistor set, capacitor sets ranging from 10pF - 100uF (should cover most audio circuits needs, the higher voltage rating the better, if you deal with 9V circuits you should at least use 16V or higher caps), breadbord, strip boards or some other pcb and wires. Also you need soldering equipment and potentiometers if you want to make the mixer part i mentioned.

When you already bought all this you of course start wanting more stuff to experiment with, so you should also buy a pack of 555 timers to get you started.

I put up some links for some of the parts i mentioned just to give you an idea what it’s gonna cost:

Resistors lot $2.35:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Set-600pcs-30-Kind-1-4W-Resistance-1-Metal-Film-Resistor-Assorted-Kit-Each-20-Free/32643716652.html

Caps lot 1 $2.90:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/30-valuesX10pcs-300pcs-Ceramic-capacitor-2PF-0-1UF-component-diy-samples-kit-new-and-original-free/32621058643.html

Caps lot 2 $2.20:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/set-of-120pcs-12-values-0-22UF-470UF-Aluminum-electrolytic-capacitor-assortment-kit-set-pack-Free/32323214980.html

NE555x20 0.75: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-New-NE555-NE555P-NE555N-555-Timers-DIP-8-TEXAS/1525063698.html

LM386 amp module assembled $0.48:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/LM386-Audio-Amplifier-Module-200-Times-5V-12V-Input-10K-Adjustable-Resistance-Free-Shipping-Dropshipping/32302161098.html

LM386 amp module not assembled $1.50:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DIY-Electronic-Kit-LM386-Super-Mini-Audio-Amplifier-DIY-Kit-Suite-Trousse-LM386-Amplificador-Module-Board/32663296766.html

Spring unit $20.37:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Guitar-AMP-Spring-Reverb-Tank-Unit-Guitarra-Amplifier-Part-2-Springs-Reverberation-Type-TPSB2EB2C1B-Riverbero-Box/32293613062.html

Complete soldering tool kit $13.90:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Soldering-Tool-Kit-Electric-Solder-iron-Desoldering-pump-Solder-Wick/32236808091.html

Small universal PCBx10 $1.64:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-10Pcs-new-Prototype-Paper-Copper-PCB-Universal-Experiment-Matrix-Circuit-Board-5x7cm-Brand/32351499755.html

Bread board $0.96:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-1pcs-DIY-400-Points-Solderless-Bread-Board-Breadboard-400-PCB-Test-Board-for-ATMEGA/32657614549.html

Wire 250m $5.72:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/PCB-flying-jumper-wire-line-250meter-820FT-30AWG-single-conductor-free-shipping/32614710099.html

You may even find cheaper alternatives…

You can also make your own spring unit, make it with a slinky and you get some really awesome sounds. Noise shouldn’t be an issue if you do it proper, because it’s such simple electromechanical energy conversion it basically cooks down to the quality of the amplifier that drives it and the preamp that brings the signal to a suitable level. Of course the electromechanical parts do matter a whole lot, but i don’t view them as sources of noise, but rather as adding different characteristics to the sound.

I honestly don’t think spending a lot of time on developing an almost convincing spring reverb dsp is the way to go, i think it would rather piss people off if that was the next big thing in Renoise.

10

Wow ! What an interesting read ! A source of usefull information. Thanks a lot B)I’m not sure if I got the time, patientce and talent to do it on my own tbh but I might try at some point - I first need to sink into these links etc.Thanks also for your opinion on the matter. Great :excl:

I don’t think it would piss people off to have a good spring reverb in their DAW though. There exist people that are convinced to produce music in the box and are lucky to be able to use just a laptop. I think you guys that are into coding think a different way than the standard music producer tbh.

11

I don’t think it would piss people off to have a good spring reverb in their DAW though. There exist people that are convinced to produce music in the box and are lucky to be able to use just a laptop. I think you guys that are into coding think a different way than the standard music producer tbh.

People won’t get pissed for having a spring reverb, but they’re pissed because of all the time that went into developing it could have been spent on actually developing Renoise.

12

I don’t see the point why a new plug in in an update of a modern DAW is not a development. Atleast each other serious DAW company constanlty does that in each big update. In each of them serve the consumers constantly new plugins if Protools, Logic, Cubase, Ableton etc. Take for example Cubase and even just a simple EQ, they of course released a simple EQ in the very first edition that does the job but in the very last 9.0 version a completely new one EQ too.This of course is still development and the very most people appriciate that. The same goes for Reverbs - especially when some of them are rather rare in other DAW’s. Plug ins are necesseary ingredients of each musical soup nowadays. Also there are a lot of musicians that want rather to get rid of hardware than collect it. There are more than enough reasons for it. When you are on the road you maybe also want to produce music with all your basic ideas in mind and it’s not possible to carry all your hardware equipment with you for example. However…

13

I don’t see the point why a new plug in in an update of a modern DAW is not a development. Atleast each other serious DAW company constanlty does that in each big update. In each of them serve the consumers constantly new plugins if Protools, Logic, Cubase, Ableton etc. Take for example Cubase and even just a simple EQ, they of course released a simple EQ in the very first edition that does the job but in the very last 9.0 version a completely new one EQ too.This of course is still development and the very most people appriciate that. The same goes for Reverbs - especially when some of them are rather rare in other DAW’s. Plug ins are necesseary ingredients of each musical soup nowadays. Also there are a lot of musicians that want rather to get rid of hardware than collect it. There are more than enough reasons for it. When you are on the road you maybe also want to produce music with all your basic ideas in mind and it’s not possible to carry all your hardware equipment with you for example. However…

People have been requesting sample start and all kinds of other useful feature that does something to the functionality of Renoise. A spring reverb that doesn’t even sound very realistic does nothing to the functionality of Renoise, also it’s a very specialized effect that imo belongs to the world of VSTs (or really just as hardware). I’m not interested in discussing this, if you don’t see my point then i don’t care because it makes no difference whatsoever what anyone of us thinks about this subject. You won’t see a native spring reverb in the near future, that i can guarantee.

14

ok, no worries it is of course your decision to make the consumers satisfied or not. You sound atleast like that, since you guarantee to know what will not be.

Each to his own, take it easy.

I wish Renoise-Team all the best to make a proper living and survive out of these decisions. Definety. It is just pity for you not to listen to all these guys here on the boards suggesting and asking the same things or new usefull ideas for years - if these are plug ins or other very standards. It’s even a bit funny not to get the point that here exist threads of long time users that ask for other daw’s.

Cheers, I’m also not interested anymore in this discussion. I’m out. Peace

15

ok, no worries it is of course your decision to make the consumers satisfied or not. You sound atleast like that, since you guarantee to know what will not be.

Each to his own, take it easy.

I wish Renoise-Team all the best to make a proper living and survive out of these decisions. Definety. It is just pity for you not to listen to all these guys here on the boards suggesting and asking the same things or new usefull ideas for years - if these are plug ins or other very standards. It’s even a bit funny not to get the point that here exist threads of long time users that ask for other daw’s.

Cheers, I’m also not interested anymore in this discussion. I’m out. Peace

no offense but did you read the other threads in general discussions? Atm ‘renoise team’ consists of aprox. 1 and a half person and it’s not even living of renoise. so even if the team wanted to develop your idea, there’s simply not enough manpower to implement both bugfixes, urgent requests, less urgent requests, borderline requests… Also while his reply may sounded a bit harsh i think TheBellows has a point. There are gazillion things that need improvement before implementing a spring reverb.

If you love springs i suggest to go buy an Accutronics spring tank with right impedance (so you can drive it with headphones out and amp it with a mixer mic pre), use a metal slinky (those springs that walk of stairs) or wind your own springs and drive it with a small pc speaker (i wound several springs myself with small gauge metal wire from harware store tightly around pens, pvc tubes, broomsticks… sore fingers but it worked!) or salvage some old organ… plenty of cheap tricks to get various springs :slight_smile:

16

Not completely sure what U are talking about here because I do not understand the underlying technics and the behaviour of spring reverb completely, but is it impossible to script/code it by yourself/ourselves? Even if it would take some time, it would be nice to learn and understand how to code these things.

Just commenting this because I like a lot of allkinds of DUB / SKA -effects : D

Actually I wanted to ask what is the hardest thing to emulate/code this effect?

17

Actually I wanted to ask what is the hardest thing to emulate/code this effect?

I would say that it’s pretty hard because it’s a complex thing to model realistically. When I called the effect a bit “samey” I was not referring to the various effects/plugins sounding similar but more, that the spectrum of possible reverbs always seem quite limited. I like my digital FX to be more extreme than the thing they’re emulating :slight_smile:

What I have done on a couple of occasions is to load up some plate/spring IRS in the convolver. For example, these are pretty good (dirty sounding but authentic):
http://www.dubbhism.org/2008/10/free-download-60-classic-and-king-tubby.html

18

It seems like it would be kind of hard, though. To mimic a room with non moving walls and other static characteristics isn’t insanely hard to imagine, at least in theory, right?

An ancient hack for modeling a room, pluck 2, 3, 4 springs with a transducer… already see from what is happening mechanically it is more like modeling strumming open guitar strings than just coming up with the correct mess of signal repeats, plus emulating whatever else it does to the signal by the time it gets out the other end. Worse, even, the very low frequencies these ‘strings’ represent might make the ‘pluck’ timing vs ‘string’ phase and amplitude differences even more obvious…

19

I will say that you can get quit some mileage by putting a convolver loaded with a good spring sample on a send and somewhat severely (is there such a thing? ok, not too severely?) exaggerating the most prominent frequency going into it. By doing, you know, some sort of loudest frequency expansion sort of thing. And, also some random eq peaks for good measure. It does work fairly well. Probably can be done natively in Renoise?

20

The spring transfers the adio signal mechanically, it will even sound different in different temperatures because alloy in spring will harden/soften based on it. Every signal that goes through the spring is affected by how the signals before it sounded like, it’s not storing information, it just bounces off by it.

I would think it is as hard to simulate as to synthesize a realistic guitar sound with all its articulations.