focus on having three main elements at any one time, you can switch them around - but any more may be confusing for people to listen to!
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focus on having three main elements at any one time, you can switch them around - but any more may be confusing for people to listen to!
I guess you`re talking non drum/ bass elements, so something like these three on top?:
-
Chord stabs
-
Melody
-
Chopped vocal
more like drums, vocal and bass… main elements in a track, if you focus on having three strong ones which hold the attention and drive the track, its better than layering up with 6 or 6 where nothing actually leads the way.
i have written lots of little things like this down, i’ll try and get a list together
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if you play, jam around with just one instrument avoid (for first) low frequencies
Melodies, Riffs, Chords are more accessible from Mid Frequencies (Creativity)
about mixing sounds against each other so each can be heard clearly. well I’m not sure if all this is correct. I never read about it in books or so…I just made this up doing my own research, but it seems to work™ for me.
human hearing is divided into “critical bands”, that are like bandpass filters that can move their centers a bit up and down to focus elements. Humans can only distinguish one sound per band. the bark scale seems to be easiest to use for such purposes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bark_scale
if in one critical band partials of a sound are like about 3-6bd louder than any other noise in that band, that sound will be clearly audible in the foreground. ofc you can mix a sound so it is in foreground in multiple critical bands. if other bands are shaddowed, the sound will be audible just like it would sound with only the foreground bands audible (you can check with filters/eqs).
this seems to be true for transients at the same time as for tonal sounds or atonal noise. so each band can yield both transients and some continuous tone, and all might be heard clearly.
regarding timbre of a sound, if its energies are mostly at the bottom range of a band, it will be percieved as “low/relaxed” while on the upper side of each band it will sound like “high pitched/pressed/energetic”. this is also true that a noise centered about the lower range of a higher band will sound more “relaxed” than one on the upper side of a band below.
for transients there seems to be a certain timeframe within they melt into one perceived hit, or if far away enough in time will be distinguishable. so shifting a track in time such that the attacks, especially of rhythmic sounds, are aligned in a succession in time in order of importance, can result in the attacks of the single hits becomming more clear leading to good separation of the sounds. To glue them together ofc you would have to do the opposite and align the peaks of the transients as exact as possible.
regarding the continuous tones, especially in the mids, although most often mixing two sound would result in mud, it seems sometimes possible to mix two tones with different timbre in a band, and get away with that band sustaining two instruments as the sounds blend.
another nice trick is clearing single bands for bringing up certain transients or reverb tails. for example, if my snare punches at 400hz, it might be a good idea to notch or sidechain that range away from other instruments, so that the snare punch will be strongly perceivable. or chop some out rigidly at around 7000hz without crippling timbre too much, and then eq some reverbs to be strong within that band -> suddenly space/depth can become perceivable even in a busy mix.
at some frequencies the human hearing seems to be more able to seperate muddy stuff from each other, this seems to be true around 1000hz and especially around 3400hz - here it seems to be possible to place vital info and delay tails etc. of multiple instruments.
a good idea to find problematic areas can be to have a sharp bandpass filter on the master and tune it for a single band, then toggle. sweeping, you can check your mix very well, and see where each instrument is in the foreground, and which bands consist of mud and would need some work out.
for stereo the possible info seems to be kind of partially doubled, so there is potentially extra info perceivable. but not all people will listen with headphones, so it might be a good idea to mix or consistently check for clarity in mono mode, and consider width and panning stuff as secondary qualities. this way you will have a clean mix as desired under any stereo circumstances. because it is possible, that something will sound very easily distinguishable in a good stereo field, but will collapse to mud on a badly placed home stereo.
ofc trying to mix with just this info and deaf ears is bullshit, you will generate ugly unnatural gibberish. you still need to eq sounds by ear, such that they sound well defined. but this info can help a lot in finding and fixing problems, when you just can’t get that mud weeded out and need a guideline about what and where to look for.
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@ Zero Fly : Hey thanks this is great information.
I have a question about stereo and panning after lookng at this part :
for stereo the possible info seems to be kind of partially doubled, so there is potentially extra info perceivable. but not all people will listen with headphones, so it might be a good idea to mix or consistently check for clarity in mono mode, and consider width and panning stuff as secondary qualities. this way you will have a clean mix as desired under any stereo circumstances. because it is possible, that something will sound very easily distinguishable in a good stereo field, but will collapse to mud on a badly placed home stereo.
A while back I was thinking about doubling every instrument and doing a complete symmetry panning setup, do you think it could work out nice in both ‘headphones’ and ‘mono sound system’ situations…might be able to get the best of both worlds, having a little movement in the panning as well as being mono compatible? Im not sure. Would things be cancelling each other out with ‘symettrical panning’ on every instrument in a song? any general tips on panning?
This is the post about the symettrical panning technique I was thinking of using:
https://forum.renoise.com/t/pxx-panning-command-guide/48824
another one :
https://forum.renoise.com/t/some-panning-column-techniques/48784
@lettuce not sure how I could help you.
Unless you have a layered/fused instruments, or try doubling one for extra width, the phase when panning should mostly be unproblematic. Ofc bass and low mids can cancel and then cause problems, but this is only when the instruments are fighting over a frequency range while having the same note/fundamental.
Some people even recommend mixing mono sounds in mono, and adding the width/pan/depth afterwards so you’d never have phase or mono problems. I think such mixes can sometimes sound artificial or “hollow” though.
I like to go by feel, what is nessecary to create some stage and good positioning and “importance hierarchy”. I dislike “skewed” soundstage, so I seldom try to pan instruments l/r all the time, but this is preference.
Your symetrical panning approach is interesting, I think I should experiment a bit with it. Though because of aesthetical reasons, I don’t think it’s good to rely on trying to seperate instruments just with stereo tricks, because in suboptimal listening environments the illusion might break quickly and then the listener might be unhappy with unclear sounds.
The “3d mix” technique where you would plan/visualise your sounds in a space of left/right, hi-/low-frequency center of mass, and depth, can be very helpful to balance out things. I think it should be nice to place instruments hard l/r if they have similar energy around similar (adjecent) critical bands. the soundstage could otherwise become “skewed”, and I dislike that on headphones. If they rely on strong energy in the same bands on l and r, they might sound clear on headphones or good stereo, but muddy on mono, thus being no good mix.
All I know I learned in 2018.
thee most important thing that i learned this year and the thing that allowed me to finish more songs was the incredible …subtle tip of splitting my working sessions into sound design sessions and arrangement sessions
and this is pretty simple to undersand usually when someone hits the mood to start making a tune you only have so much time before you get exhausted
specially if you try to do everything at once like
-make your own sounds
-
mix as you go
-
actually come up with chords and melody (the song itself)
-another thing that helps a lot its to have your sample library as organized as possible so you dont spent to much time looking for some weird effect sample or kick drum sample
- another thing and this one was like a freaking revelation !!! is ok to use other people’s preset … yeah it is
its a huge time saver !!! specially if you discover a creator that you resonate with both his music and sound design
in my case the adam fielding Europa relay refill !! best 20 bucks i ever spent
in the case of structuring your working session !!
i usually start making the tune as described :
-
pick the samples im going to use (my own or from the library)
-
pick my vsts and sounds i want to use
-
start making the tune !!!
things like mixing and setting up sidechain can be done when you have all of your arrangement lay down 1st and after that you even rethink some of your sounds and change them for new ones
- last step !! mix in a different session (a diff project file)
it really helps to split the process cause when you are mixing with stems everything becomes so much more clear (at least to me ) it even shows up things that can be corrected in the song like adding a drum fill or automate the gain or panning in diff sounds things like that !1
i would like to hear more tips like this if anyone cares to share
the process of creating the song and get into the mindset its really interesting
edit:
something i would like to add its proper gain stage and grouping make sure you route all of your main categories of sound to the specific bus like synths , bass, effects , and drums …and the drums split them in hats and snares and kicks ,it makes it much more easier to mix
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One of those end of year threads, because it`s December and why not?
The best production tip/ concept you learnt in 2018?… I finally understood the value of Mid-Side compression on buses and master bus!
I`ve had MS compressors on my hard drive for years but never really utilised them properly; just tinkering then defaulting back to stereo. However I started demoing and ended up buying Cylone Compressor after trying on the master bus and it finally clicked.
Basically If you want to add significant compression to a bus with heavy kicks and bass (content that should mostly be centred), you`re going to collapse your stereo field as the compressor pulls excessively on higher frequency stereo stuff → frustration and misery!
can this be done using ! dedicated stereo separation features inside a multiband compressor
thats what i do in maximus i split my 3 bands and set the low band to mono usually ranges down from 120hz and i spread the mid and highs to taste usually spreading the highs even more 
can this be done using ! dedicated stereo separation features inside a multiband compressor
thats what i do in maximus i split my 3 bands and set the low band to mono usually ranges down from 120hz and i spread the mid and highs to taste usually spreading the highs even more
Never tried maximus, but may give it a whirl now. I think Ozone has some similar functionality too.
Never tried maximus, but may give it a whirl now. I think Ozone has some similar functionality too.
maximus its pretty unconventional tool it features a graphic almost waveshaper kinda window to set the threshold and ratio of each individual compressor due to this uncommon feature you can perform
downwards and upwards compression de esser and limiting you can use it also as a gater and a multiband waveshaping device its pretty sick
but its expensive AF i have it cause it comes with my producer edition of FL but it alone its 180 buckaros i think
thee most important thing that i learned this year and the thing that allowed me to finish more songs was the incredible …subtle tip of splitting my working sessions into sound design sessions and arrangement sessions
and this is pretty simple to undersand usually when someone hits the mood to start making a tune you only have so much time before you get exhausted
specially if you try to do everything at once like
-make your own sounds
mix as you go
actually come up with chords and melody (the song itself)
-another thing that helps a lot its to have your sample library as organized as possible so you dont spent to much time looking for some weird effect sample or kick drum sample
- another thing and this one was like a freaking revelation !!! is ok to use other people’s preset … yeah it is
its a huge time saver !!! specially if you discover a creator that you resonate with both his music and sound design
in my case the adam fielding Europa relay refill !! best 20 bucks i ever spent
in the case of structuring your working session !!
i usually start making the tune as described :
pick the samples im going to use (my own or from the library)
pick my vsts and sounds i want to use
start making the tune !!!
things like mixing and setting up sidechain can be done when you have all of your arrangement lay down 1st and after that you even rethink some of your sounds and change them for new ones
- last step !! mix in a different session (a diff project file)
it really helps to split the process cause when you are mixing with stems everything becomes so much more clear (at least to me ) it even shows up things that can be corrected in the song like adding a drum fill or automate the gain or panning in diff sounds things like that !1
i would like to hear more tips like this if anyone cares to share
the process of creating the song and get into the mindset its really interesting
edit:
something i would like to add its proper gain stage and grouping make sure you route all of your main categories of sound to the specific bus like synths , bass, effects , and drums …and the drums split them in hats and snares and kicks ,it makes it much more easier to mix
It’s not the first time I hear it, but I struggle a lot with separating sound design and composition. When I find certain sound I usually start messing around in the controller and writing some bars down. Of course then I find very dificult to come up with more things to complete the arrangement, so I tend to start a new project 
I think I just don’t know to work with samples, I tend to use synths in an organ-like way (like Benny Benasi’s electro, if that makes it any clear). But then tracks get montonous.
It’s not the first time I hear it, but I struggle a lot with separating sound design and composition. When I find certain sound I usually start messing around in the controller and writing some bars down. Of course then I find very dificult to come up with more things to complete the arrangement, so I tend to start a new project
I think I just don’t know to work with samples, I tend to use synths in an organ-like way (like Benny Benasi’s electro, if that makes it any clear). But then tracks get montonous.
same thing happened to me bro all the time
thats why i think getting a feel for the song structure must comes 1st even if its all electronic …glitchy beats and effects
jamming with your keyboard or guitar to help you look for progressions and phrases its key to make the song
replacing a sound can come later since you already have the notes and rhytm
same goes for mixing
but it al depends in your workflow and the type of music u want to make
thats why im interested in this stuff cause i think this all changes with the diff genres and styles
having a mission is more important than anything
Yep, good tips there! I need to focus more on using grouping better myself. I suspect I should be using more group multiband processing too.
Just FYI (and I mean this as a perhaps useful counterpoint to consider, nothing more) I think it’s erroneous to assume one “should” be doing something like multi-band processing just because it exists in the wide world of production tools.
We live in a super-abundant era of easy-to-access production tools, and I think a negative byproduct of that reality is that we think we need Everything and need To Do Everything. When, in fact, most of the great productions of the past / present / (hopefully) future were done with far, far less.
There are ‘pro’ producers, if you do a little googling, who think multi-band compression (as one example) is over-processing at its worst, and in most cases useless if not downright destructive in a production context (I can’t remember which article it was, but one had a producer calling it “Maul-the-Band” processing.
That said, the positive side of the golden age of digital music production is that we can try virtually everything out and decide for ourselves, so from that angle, sure, try it out and decide for yourself if it’s improving your productions. My advice is to just not assume you “should” be doing it.
Sorry for the potentially condescending rant / lecture mode, I’ll shut it down now. But I see a lot of this sort of “oh I should be doing mid-side on everything…” and “oh I should buy fabfilter multiband comp for my master bus…” and so on, and I just don’t think it’s the smartest route to better productions, etc etc.
cheers, -M
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@ m.arthur I think youve read too much into me saying should` there.
I`ve had good results with multiband before and it was more a note-to-self, if out loud…
For every expert that wont use it there are ones that will i.e. Ive seen Tony Mazerati claim in an interview that he`s a fan.
sure, try it out and decide for yourself if it’s improving your productions.
This I can certainly agree on.
For every expert that won
t use it there are ones that will i.e. Ive seen Tony Mazerati claim in an interview that he`s a fan.
yeah also in Dave Pensado’s youtube channel Pensado’s place i remember watching his interview with Mike Dean and when he asked about his mastering chain
Dean told him
Eq + Multiband Compressor + Limiter
"its not rocket science Dave "
edit: he actually said EQ + compressor + limiter 
heres the link pretty dope stuff
pretty cool interview totally recommend
yeah also in Dave Pensado’s youtube channel Pensado’s place i remember watching his interview with Mike Dean and when he asked about his mastering chain
Dean told him
Eq + Multiband Compressor + Limiter
"its not rocket science Dave "
pretty cool interview totally recommend
Pensados Place is a great channel to dig into!
Haven’t been there in a while but I really like Dave’s laid back interview style. It`s fascinating to hear from some the engineers behind major records of the last 30+ years!
I’m professionnal producer since more than 15 years, and i understood something so basic, that i’m bit ashamed for having been so long ^^
the lenght of the pattern will determine the power and the feeling of harrasment it gives … let’s explain this completely :
let’s take a simple techno beat loop : if you work on a 16 steps pattern just after the 5th step you will have tendances to don’t repeat the 4 first step, and to make your pattern longer…
when the brain hears that the loop is not finish, start to wait the rest of the pattern, and what ever you put on it to make it feel faster (percs or running HH) it will still feel slower than if you produce everything in 4 steps then ctrl +p
making long loop will make your music richer but less harrasing.
This works for drums but also for mélodies, the rythme of the played note should be repeated after the 5th step, note can changes but not the rythme you’re playing them.
Of course all this don’t concern the end of pattern’s cut, fills etc
I tried to be as clear as possible, don’t hesitate if you didn’t understood, want to explain it better than me or don’t aggree 