Where is Piano Roll ???
search the forum - not in 1.5
Sorry, i dont undestend. I can not found that. Please, give me a stream link to this. Thanks.
the piano roll is not in the current release 1.281.
will not be in release 1.5.
will likely be part of a future release.
another one about piano roll… no BAN emoticon in here???
piano roll is for noobs 
sorry, couldn’t resist… but why do you want a tracker, which everybody uses, because it actually is a tracker, to have a piano roll?
it’s like asking for apples with orange flavour or vice versa.
if you don’t like apples, just go for oranges.
I agree, though sometimes a piano roll can give you a better overview on the chords.
If you know how to handle the shortcuts etc with a piano roll, it can be a quicker way to edit and lay out chords…
I still prefere a tracker because its a really good allround way to edit the notes and the best way to make beats, I also like the overview it gives.
However I suspect the reason why the pianoroll is taking time is because it is hard to intergrate a pianoroll with the workflow of a tracker.
In a tracker you can have two instruments playing the same note in one track, in a pianoroll these instruments will appear on the same line. How will you know they are different instruments?
Another problem to solve is that if you record something in the pianoroll, how will you layout that recording if you want to see it as a track?
These are problems which I don’t know how Martinal who I think is responsible for the pianoroll will solve.
Aero studio also has this problem…
One solution could be to not allow two or more different instruments on a track which you want to edit as a pianoroll…
No it’s not. There are some things better done with a tracker interface, others better done with a piano roll interface. Come on keith, you know this!
sorry, i really can’t think of any significant advantage a piano roll could have over a tracker interface. when it comes to chords i think in alpha-numeric values and do not imagine a combination of pressed piano keys or whatsoever. i assume, the piano roll has been created to make it easier for those being used to playing a real piano or claviature in general, to get a concrete insight of what’s happening in the sequencer.
in times, when there was no renoise yet and ft2 already bored me to death, i tried to work with logic audio for awhile - the only aspect i found quite handy was the ability of adding more resolution at any time with a fingertip. everything else, like the fact that the progression of time is displayed horizontally, the “i-click-one-button-to-get-a-groove-quantize-function”, the way you had to deal with events like filter automation, volume amplitudes, etc. really made me wanna p**e.
it was impossible to work with it, since i don’t wanna draw bars and envelopes which are either inaccurate (especially the envelopes) or require excessive labour to not be the aforementioned.
maybe it’s just me and my antipathy towards the graphical visualization of audible events, because i also don’t use the automation (envelope) function in renoise as well.
entering numerical values is way more accurate and definite to me.
the only thing that bugs me is the resolution … for fast filtersweeps which are supposed to sound “stageless”, the tracker just doesn’t offer enough of it.
and i don’t really understand, why the common tenor associated with trackers is “beat production”… i guess almost all of us have heard the most diversified music coming from a tracker, ranging from classical to rock and from IDM/ambient to mind penetrating hardcore stuff.
i devoutly believe that everything written with a piano roll sequencer is also possible to be written with a tracker and the other way around - it’s just a matter of personal preference and the perception of music, implying the way it has to be visualized in a computer-based music production tool.
concludingly, i wanna say that to me, a piano roll sequencer will always emit the charme of a music construction kit, a little bit like LEGO, where you have to stick blocks and bars together to obtain something whole… something for kids… well, something for noobs 
‘puke’ s not a curse-word.
i like legos 
but i’ve never gotten into piano rolls either. i like to do my visualizing in my head and let my fingers d othe walking 
Emotions run high when piano roll is mentioned. One thing piano roll is good for is moving alot of specific notes at the same time, it’s also good for people that want a “GUI” to composed with, which newbies loves.
Yea, absolutely right! FINALLY somebody has the nerdballs to say that!
And playing a piano is also just kid’s level noob game. You just have to press some keys and it instantly makes some music! Completely without hex! Bwah! How lame! You don’t even have to enter the numbers of your desired frequencies while playing!
But hold on - Music is completely overrated in general! Art? Ha! All what’s those great composer-“artist”-scams are doing is to stick Lego blocks, called ‘notes’, together! And there even are only 12 different blocks per octave (at least in western music), and the notation isn’t even done in stylish binary code. A 3 year old could handle that level of complexity!
just joking a bit. I agree with the rest of your post (partly - depending on situation), but that statement is just (intentionally?) funny. I really don’t see the difference in intelectual challange when comparing lines on a matrix and chars on a spreadsheet.
btw, writing with super-small fonts is way too much fun.
Where is the magnifying tool when you need it? 
Just copy the text and paste it into Notepad
(why not adding this in everyone’s signature?)
Exactly! And that’s what rounser meant when he wrote that there were some things that are easier to do with a piano roll. Keith, Have you ever tried to edit a MIDI recorded piano solo using a piano roll and a tracker? I don’t thing so, as from what you say, you don’t compose music this way. Still, I can assure you that the work gets done far quicker using a piano roll, because most of the time you don’t need all the low level control the tracker gives when editing notes of a solo. Needless to say, many (most?) of professional music producers are used to composing using a piano keyboard - so they won’t consider Renoise to be a serious tool unless it has a piano roll.
So my bottom line - sometimes it’s better to use the tracker interface (mangling loops), sometimes it’s better to use a piano-roll (editing solos, chords), but the important thing is not to make people work one way or the other - let’s have both and let them decide. Certainly saying that piano roll s*cks, because trackers are better and I don’t play a piano anyway won’t help.
That said, I think all those 
were added so that we could express our first impressions of 1.5 alpha
BTW, that even looks like me in my new Sennheisers 
@paulie
you’re right, i don’t record notes “on-the-fly”, as i always write down what my imagination incubates step by step. of course it’s easier to record notes via midi live and press the quantize button after it, in order to perceive a properly arranged sequence of whatever you were playing, but i personally just don’t like that way, as it feels a bit like cheating for me… dunno why… but something like musicmaker and e-jay comes to mind here again
but you definately got a point there saying that a piano roll would increase renoise’s popularity, because that’s what a piano roll unfortunately is - highly popular.
so to come back to the original thought of my initial post, i just wanted to straighten out, that when you REALLY are keen on a piano roll and want to write music with it, which you DO NOT seem to be able to write with a tracker, then WHY NOT switch to an application which features that darn piano roll? there are so many of it, that it shouldn’t be hard to find the right one. there’s piano roll software for every wallet as well… ranging from low budget fruity loops to sonic syndicate’s orion to logic audio (ye i know, discontinued for PC, why btw?) and finally to the rather expensive, professional solutions from steinberg.
so judging from my point of view you’re either universally good at writing music with a tracker or with a piano roll… i personally wouldn’t be better with a hybrid of both worlds and that’s most probably the reason i’ll never understand the request for that feature to be integrated in renoise, because i always thought " we trackers " felt the same…
ok sorry, just wanted to be gentle as it is colloquial language, describing something ppl might feel disgust for. =)
don’t get me wrong, i like’em, too.
there’s nothing wrong about LEGOs and i didn’t mean to be personal, but there’s something wrong about professional music software that feels like a LEGO construction kit
isn’t it just that what you can do with a block-copy in a tracker as well?
so you prohibit my freedom of speech? k.
And it shows in your music, which I’m a big fan of. (Guess that the first occasion for me to tell you this “personally”)
e-jay ?! 
You must be kidding me! In e-jay you put together some blocks of music composed and recorded by someone else so that is certainly far from creating your own music, but if you want to say that recording and editing MIDI notes makes the process less creative I got to disagree. The difference between placing notes whenever your imagination sees them and recording on-the-fly and tweaking later and is only in the medium. In the first case you get the notes where you want them right away, while when playing an instrument you have to transfer your idea to the computer by means of your hands and/or legs, which are not 100% accurate. The quantize button is there only to help you put the notes accurately where you intended them - so in the end the outcome is the same in terms of creativity, regardless of the method. What is different is the amount of effort - once you master an instrument, it really is easier and faster to play and record your ideas then to track them note by note. Also, playing live you can introduce certain feelings to your playing which I find nearly impossible to enclose when entering notes.
Like playing the piano - why unfortunately?
Here’s where we won’t agree - I think telling potential users “go use something else” is the worst idea ever - and probably the reason trackers are still little known in the world of audio production. If Renoise gets to be the first tracker to combine both worlds - it might win a lot of market share, because once music producers see what can be done in a tracker, they will certainly start using it. But they most probably won’t even give it try, if they don’t have the functionality they consider basic to start with.
You might say fck the fcking f*ckers, let them use what they will - Renoise doesn’t need them - but I say the opposite. I wouldn’t like to see Renoise development stopped at some point just as any other spare time project. Unfortunately, it’s the producers who can pay the most money so if the devs are to make a living out of Renoise, they have to get to them.
I know there’s this nice underground feeling about tracking - coding your music. But I also know that there are certain things that can be done faster/better by playing - and I don’t wish to switch apps to get part of my work done in Renoise and some in some other app. I want to do it all in Renoise.
Moreover, to me it’s not about us, the trackers, and them the commercial wankers - it’s just about getting tracks done. If there are tools that help me or others do it easier, I want them.
Piano-roll is not an ideology and neither is a tracker - they’re just tools suited for certain, not exactly overlapping needs.
Peace
i meanwhile think i’m way too biased towards this topic, as the anonymous user already suggested, so just a few more lines before i’ll finally shut up concerning this.
you definately got some good points there paulie, which can’t be rejected, but my sympathy for trackers does not rely on some kind of “underground” feeling or whatever you might call it - it’s because i really think that it’s the best and most feasable way to express oneself thru music with a computer program.
unfortunately because if piano roll wouldn’t be the most popular way to create music digitally, then most probably the tracking-way would be.
this again would imply that the market for such applications would be a much greater one, with more applications and a broader acceptance, which wouldn’t hurt i guess.
quite convincing, agreed.
on a final note let me clarify that this wasn’t a rant against the implementation of a piano-roll, i just wanted to know WHY people would want such a thing when there already is the most wonderful thing on this planet called a tracker.
but as you say that you would actually prefer to use both (didn’t know there were people wanting both, to me this has always been an "either / or " matter), the whole thing makes of course some sense.
so i guess i learned my lesson now and will stop this discussion right here, before people start calling me names in case the piano roll won’t somewhen find the way into the realms of renoise.
over&out,.