I dont think this is the problem. Ive never seen fl studio tutorial where just native plugins were used (piracy). The way how the daw handless them is also important and ive get better vsti recognization with renoise than with any different daw out here (bitwig, tracktion and ableton are the worst). What is the most important thing IMHO is how quickly you can realize your ideas.
Yes, and furthermore, I donāt see the point in chasing professional production standards that will have become unfashionable and changed by the time I have achieved them. I prefer to make music I like to the best of my ability. Also, that video 00.1 posted. 
I donāt even know what people mean when they say āpro sounding tracksā. Does that mean the mix sounds like everything on the radio (highs blown out) or the club (bass blown out)? If so, I donāt want to sound āproā. Iām guessing that most Renoise users arenāt overly concerned about sounding āproā. Sounding āproā is not the be all and end all. Why sound āproā at all when the end delivery is an mp3ā¦
I do lots of sound/sample mangling outside of the computer, but then itās all arranged and mixed in Renoise with the native fx. As a reference you can peep my shitty non pro Renoise music here: http://22tape.com 
If you canāt blame the tools for bad musicianship, you probably canāt praise the tools for good musicianship either. More music-making, less wank-theorizing please! <āthis is meant for the broader gear-forum-community in general.
I love Renoise, and for what I use it for itās fine, and Iām not complaining. Once Iāve rewired it to Reaper to get audio tracks for guitar Iām pretty set. I donāt mind using VSTs to achieve whatever the native DSPās lack. Iād prefer, workflow wise, to not tie 2 DAWs together like this, but itās ok.
That being said, I think itās a total cop out to respond to very legitimate criticism with what amounts to a personal attack on the criticizers artistic worth.
The video 00.1 posted, I notice Harris isnāt still lifting cinder blocks. Itās true that what you do with what you have is more important that what you have, but thatās completely and utterly irrelevant to a discussion of Renoiseās capabilities. There are other DAWs out there, and if every response to legitimate criticism is āItās not Renoiseās fault that you suck, itās not what you have itās what you do with what you haveā all youāre going to do is piss people off and drive them away to other DAWs. The assertion seems to be that if you are dissatisfied with Renoiseās current capabilities that the only explanation that there can possibly be is you suck at music. If you canāt see why thatās bullshit, then I donāt know how else to explain it.
this too!
Well I do see the point. The point is to make your music as good as it can possibly be. Itās a goal musicians set. It doesnāt matter if the goal post keeps moving, or if we never get there, the point is to keep trying and to never be completely satisfied, because if you become satisfied you stop progressing.
Iām fairly sure weāre on the same side of the debate here. āThe point is to make your music as good as it can possibly beāābut who and what ultimately determines our music to be āgoodā? And do we ultimately give two shits about what these invisible taste-makers determine what is āgoodā in relation to our music? Nope.
Also, every studio Iāve ever been in that has tons of expensive outboard gear, the āprofessionalā audio engineers use the presets in Waves to mix/master their clients tracks. The hardware gear is, more often than not, simply showing off their balls to potential clients to get work.
Iām a strong believer in the power of software to replace almost all hardware (except midi controllers and obviously monitors). And to that end, I donāt see a problem with musing over how software can be better than it currently is.
I didnāt read it like you i guess. The thing is that some guys are so heavily focused on what is missing instead of what is there. How much can be expected from a small team like Renoise? You have to realize that a city canāt be built in a day, sometimes you have to demolish some buildings to get room for some new ones.
Nothing wrong with making suggestions to improve stuff, but you canāt really expect that all suggestions just magically appears in one update.
Well that I totally agree with. And I thought R3 was a fantastic update, and I think the team is doing a good job.
I read the post differently. I felt that the message was that you can make great music even under conditions that may not be perfect, and that there is artistic value in making do with what one has.
It was also in response to a series of posts that seemed overly strong and, at least to me, provocative, sulky, and negative for the sake of being negative. There is a difference between constructive criticism and trashing the software by saying one can only make amateurish sounding music with it (never mind that the vast majority of people do exactly that, regardless of the DAW they use ).
Personally, I donāt care what anyone uses to make music. Iād much rather have all of these āmusiciansā on gear forums share links to their music, instead of half-page lists in their signature of what software/hardware they own.
Oh you have shelves full of herbs that youāve bought, but youāve never used them to make a proper meal? Then youāre probably more of an herb collector, not a chef.
Well, Iām interested to see this discussion because I myself am not great at synth sound design and Iām more of a guitar guy and donāt really do EDM or pure electronic music (I experimented with it for quite a while and then decided that I really just prefer to make guitar music). What I was gathering from the discussion, is not that you can only make amateurish sounding music with Renoise, but that you can only make amateurish sounding music with ONLY native Renoise, which if you were making (as discussed) a demo for Renoise to show off itās capabilities you couldnāt very well release an xrni with a bunch of VSTās. I donāt think anyone was trying to say that you literally cannot make professional quality music using Renoise as your DAW, just that itās extremely difficult to showcase this in a demo song.
btw carbonthief, I wasnāt having a go at you. i clearly see that you have a link to your music in your sig
and i too like to muse about gear, but mostly in real life to real humans, not on the internet. itās a rare thing to be able to muse freely on the internet without people becoming defensive and overly sensitive and it turns into fan-boy flame-war.
I like that perspective. Perhaps it depends a bit on how you look at what you do or want to do: a product or art. If you create a product, then standards, expectations of others, commercial potential, and how it compares to competing products matter. If you create art, then expressiveness, originality, meaning, and self-sufficiency matter. Both desires are valid.
There is some overlap, and music can be both product and art, but rarely (or never) in equal parts.
absolutely.
i guess iām more talking about those on the internet who claim to have all of this knowledge about gear, yet have no problems criticizing otherās creations without providing examples of their own work. you know, classic over compensationā¦
Your free to read my video posts as you please. I try not to put any extra words on it,
sometimes I do, I actually deleted words on the first video post.
I post them mainly for me, to satisfy my relevancy in threads Iām mnemonically invested in.
Meaning, I have this thread in thought with other non related but possibly could be related
online researches such as tools and sociology.
If it helps others, great, if it doesnāt, it doesnāt.
To the general publicā¦ not attacking anyone specific or attacking random readers.
Professional by a very general definition means your making money off your chosen market.
Thatās how I view āprofessional soundā. What a musician uses is just as important
as the context it is used in and how a musician attempts to attract its fan base.
Sociological context, psychological context, tool context.
Why is the 808 in some areas of the world attached to urban music, or acid ?
Whoās responsible for that public perception ?
Making money off of music is where I personally see the real complaint.
Why do I see it that way ? Because most musicians are users not builders.
Users of tools from builders. Musicians, generally have no control over this.
To a great degree, musicians are standing on the backs of long dead great contributors.
If you, anonymous reader, is going to attempt to collide musical integrity with economics.
My suggestion at the moment is to not put all your eggs in one basket.
Additional reading material on the subject of digital sharecropping.
To stay with your metaphor, the cart wonāt even make it to B, because of stale gear or in worst case cattle dying on some hill slope on their way to B.
Agreed for a lot of purposes. It just still doesnāt help for the purpose and actual goal weāre talking about.
Thereās a good chance to make this happen, when people keep getting things they didnāt ask for, while still lacking essentials. Itās btw not complaining, just stating facts.
Nailed it. 10/10
Maybe checkout the FL forum. It is part of their terms, that released demo *.flp are only allowed to use native FL. Not everyone is keeping it that way, but most do. Some really good demos there.
Do you think, thatād also be what helps to promote Renoise? Becaus thatās the point of the discussion.
One more nailing it.
I have to admit, Iāve thought several times about challenging the guys telling so for a native Renoise dance track compo, one on one, to shut them up for good. But seriously, thereās a good chance then youād just be the boasting asshole and nothing else would happen. No matter what you do, when youāre criticising Renoise, youāll always be the asshole. Iām meanwhile quite used to it.
To exemplify my own statement, my musical compositions can live in other places other than Renoise.
text editors
Excel (Excel to Renoise)
my hands (muscle memory)
my mind
on paper
in other peopleās minds and hands (If I ever humbly reach that level of keep on earth)
R programming language (If I get through the course)
For production, I own Renoise, VSTās, guitar and pedals, laptop, no audio card, gaming headphones, the internet bill for research, and electricity.
Why do I mention this, because of the contrast of free ideas to the economics involved in solidifying those ideas.
How much does your attempt to solidify your ideas cost yearly ? Can you sustain that and maybe grow with it financially ?
I ask these questions in the same line of thought of music for fun and therapy or music for economic profit.
The musician seeking tools must clearly define his or her intentions and plan accordingly.
I suppose I could do more to say āI make my music with Renoiseā and I definitely will tell someone so when asked.
The frustration Iām expressing is that I remember that you showed some really nice techniques on the forum some time ago, so I know that you should have skills to back up what youāre talking about, but aside from those sounds here and there, I have no idea who you produce or what you make. This damages the context of your commentary because Iām making assumptions about your motives are, and Iām sure other readers are too. I have absolutely no idea what you do, but I wish I did.
I maintain that Renoise is a small, community driven thing, so any demos, any advertising, ought to come from that community, it will turn out better that way than expecting the usual demo artists to work outside their natural styles. I understand that itās a bit unfair to reply āSounds like a plan, why donāt you do it?ā to a suggestion, then complain when that person doesnāt want to be the one to act, because it sounds like Iām calling that person lazy for not wanting to do something that I donāt really want to do either. (Iām not qualified to make an EDM demo myself, at best I might get a grime bass and a loud drum here and there.) Iām sorry if that makes me sound like a hypocrite.