Some of the FL plugins that count as native cost individually more than an entire Renoise license. The “Fruity Edition” that costs around as much as Renoise doesn’t even allow audio recording. The demos work because all editions include demo versions of all plugins.
Reaper and Bitwig come without any demo songs.
Okay, first of all, there was no intention to attack you. Seriously. The discussion atm as I understand it, is about promoting Renoise with some popular and professional sounding demo tracks, like from the charts, clubs, radio. And I just couldn’t see, how “I prefer to make music I like to the best of my ability.” does fit that topic, because that’s actually what everyone does anyway. Agreed? The point is, does that fit the purposes of the demo tracks or not. And that’s actually already it.
Why you’re frustrated? I’m a bit suprised it seems to matter to someone who I am, only to handle my comments. Why does it? Some superstar telling a load of bullshit doesn’t beat some nobody telling substantiated facts. At least not, when things are about the topic. Please don’t rate people’s contributions by who they are, but first of all by what they say. If it helps, let me tell you I’m none special. Just some guy having spent a huge amount of time with Renoise, having collected quite some knowledge, practice and still spending a lot of time with sound design, production techniques and gear, because of being bored by plain composing. I don’t exactly understand how “who am I” damages the context of my comments. Of course I’m responsible for the things I say, but I’m not responsible for other people’s assumptions and never will be. Posting off-topic, wrong and unsubstantiated crap damages the context of comments. Not who’s posting it. My motives are quite simple: getting the most out of Renoise.
I really guess, you simply got me wrong or maybe I said it the wrong way. I wasn’t intending to force you to contribute or something like that. So just relax. 
The same thing is gonna happen with Redux soon. Beside that I wonder what kind of argumentation it is to desperately search for worse examples and arguments to keep a bad example up. Strange attitude.
i don’t know much about other daws but what other daw-package has all those tools for mixing and mastering on a pro level included “natively”?
my guess is: none for around the 65 EUR that renoise costs. (i don’t claim to know but i got a hunch… the cost for all that dsp dev must be covered somewhere)
isn’t those awesome native dsps/software synths what you are paying for primarily for the pro versions compared to the basic versions? else, why upgrade?
here’s the pricing for fl
FL Studio + ALL Plugins Bundle €663.96
FL Studio Signature Bundle €221.65
FL Studio Producer Edition €159.00
FL Studio Fruity Edition €79.00
You compared Renoise to FL with 700 euros worth of plugins. Referencing Reaper is not “desperate”, but actually a more appropriate comparison as it roughly costs the same as Renoise and is a well-respected tool used by actual professionals. In the context that you raised (“professional sounding”), that is a better comparison than FL Studio.
If you do use FL Studio as a reference, then you either need to compare the non-demo content of the edition that costs the same as Renoise or compare Renoise + 700 euros worth of plugins to FL Studio with all of Image-Line’s plugins. Otherwise you get flawed results. You can’t make the vast majority, if any at all, of the FL demo songs with the edition that costs as much as Renoise. You can only play them back.
Checkout Reaper for $60. The demo is even unlimited btw…
It’s kinda funny how the comparison between Renoise and the popular DAWs isn’t okay, as long as Renoise loses, but suddenly becomes okay, when it seems to win.
I’ve just friendly related to some simple user demos on the FL forum, that Akiz obviously didn’t know about. No need to crap any pants.
Oh, really!? Where did that happen? Would you please be so kind and quote the part, where I did? Thank you!
You were referencing FL Studio’s demo songs. Most, if not all of them, are made with plugins that are not included with the €79 version of FL Studio. Would you mind posting a “professional sounding” song that you created with only Fruity Edition? Or with Reaper and its stock plugins? This would help me to better understand what you can do with them (without external plugins) that you can’t do with Renoise (without external plugins).
Akiz told, he had never seen pure native FL tracks and I told him where to find them. That’s all. Everything else is your pure fantasy. I have no idea why you’re thinking I’d have to prove something to you, because I for sure don’t have. If you want to find out about other DAWs, get them an work with them. I’m not your tutor nor your salesman for DAWs.
Frankly it is never okay, whether Renoise wins or looses, the engine structure is different from the other DAWS, but that can also be said for the other DAWS compared to eachother.
As long as nobody besides the developers of these software applications know the insides, comparing can never be fair, but in specific regards it should also not be the actual point of discussion.
What matters most in such discussions is if capabilities simply are not possible, not even with any possible workaround.
For me personally Renoise 3.0 is a stepping stone to the next level, but 3.0 does not experience fully usable for some and in some areas even seem a bit degraded when it comes to comfort. (Layering samples is less simple and more restrictive than it was in 2.8 which is a good fact nobody can ignore).
I think there plenty of areas and options that need more detailed crystallization and a lot of users agree for their own personal reasons with this thought. If Redux is properly thought out and all the best benefits of it are also added to Renoise, that might be the best time to put more effort in an advertisement campaign.
I would still advise to those who desire improvement of the instrument structure, to subscribe to the Redux mailling list for having it tested out, specially if you use another DAW as your main application.
With Redux the XRNI saga will continue and you can continue submitting your ideas regarding the Renoise instrument structure, and share the experience results of how it performs in other applications.
Reaper is cool, did some crossvertizing for them on Youtube.
You don’t have to prove anything to me. You came into this thread and stated that one cannot make “professional sounding” music with a native Renoise. You didn’t define what “professional sounding” actually means to you, even after Tape asked, so I wondered if you had an example that you created and that illustrates the difference.
This wasn’t a request for proof, but an opportunity for you to clarify what you mean, allow everyone to be on the same page, and to show that you are an expert on the subject of your criticism.
Get a well produced Renoise track and compare its sound to commercial music from the charts. In best case don’t use the kiddy-headphones from the last happy-meal for comparison. There you are. Not very hard to understand.
Well, yes, that would actually be quite an improvement over the Renoise stock plugins I think. The Reaplugs are of pretty nice quality and so are some of the JS plugins.
Definitely don’t agree here. Someone who knows their way around mixing/mastering a record can do it in whatever software/hardware you give them. There would be some difference ofc but it wouldn’t be like “Oh man how the hell am I gonna mix this thing down without FL??? I mean there isn’t even a Maximus here”
“Commercial chart music” sounding better than Renoise is a quite weird statement. It’s surely more about the skill level/experience of the person producing them? I mean give Andy Wallace Renoise and he would still make the Nevermind album sounding fantastic.
And this stuff is purely personal you know…
the whole idea behind “pro” or “commercial” mastering is to make the track sound as consistent as possible across as many listening devices as possible, including kiddy-headphones. like most creative endeavors, when your end goal is to be commercial and please the masses, you end up with a very watered down and safe product. safe equals money, unfortunately. and in the case of the “professional” engineering of music, the best way to please the masses is to make the music less dynamic (compressed to shit) so to be listenable across a variety of devices. again, i’m not sure why it makes sense to strive to sound “professional” or “commercial” in that context.
yes!
good call. didn’t know that the “discount version” was that cheap! yes, i agree… reaper seems like a better bargin if you take the native devices into consideration.
Mmh, how would this “someone” do multiband compression without a multiband compressor? How would he/she add tube saturation without tube saturation emulation? How does he/she correct for phase distortion when EQing without an EQ that supports this? How would he/she approach Mid/Side processing without the host allowing for this?
Don’t get me wrong, I do see your argument, a skilled person can definitely get more out of Renoise than I do, but there are of course also limitations. I personally also don’t expect Renoise to become a professional mixing/mastering tool.
That said, for me personally, having demos as XRNS that sound professional is also not the point. Demos in XRNS format should showcase the composition. An additional fully mixed and mastered (and “professional” sounding) audio demo can nicely accompany this I think. For instance, I am most impressed by the mere fact that Renoise was generally involved in creating the stuff of B-complex or Pete Philly and Perquisite (even though I of course know that mixing and mastering has been done somewhere else). A nice combination of both aspects is for instance the Hunz stuff: Great mixed and mastered album (not in Renoise, btw) and also an accompanying XRNS as demo in Renoise.
Yep, just as I thought…And already said on the first page of this thread 
yep.
and a “pro” engineer can’t do much with a track if it’s not composed/arranged and produced well in the first place. and renoise is just as viable (to me) as logic, pro-tools or FL as far as composing/arranging/producing…even more so for me since I prefer trackers to begin with.
if you get to the point where you NEED to have your tracks professionally mixed/mastered, congrats, that’s a good thing, because that usually means you’ve been signed to a label or made it to a soundtrack or an ad spot. ironically though, if you get to this point, the pro engineer will likely request raw stems of your track, i.e. without any track compression or mix sweetening because that makes their job easier. so first and foremost, just make music that sounds good to YOU.
Just some context here. Reaper is the side project of Justin Frankel. This is a guy who sold his company Nullsoft to AL in 1999 and ended up with around $59 million dollars when he was 22. So, it’s not roughly the same cost at all. It’s the same price but the resources to get it done are vastly different…
that’s strange…my response to emre_K’s post was placed in the thread before his post…
and again!