Windows 7 Renoise 2.6 Midi Jitter

I just did a test with my mks50, 4ms lynxtwo l22, 44khz, 128 buffer. midi out was the roland cakewalk a 500 s, with the super tight midi bs that is supposed to fix this bs.

I write a 16nth not retriggering 32 times same note. sample it then save the sample. Then i go into wavelab and look at the recording and find the start of each note, then write down the ms it happens at, i do this 16 times, then i subtarct them, like take the last note and subtract the note that happned before, for example, my last note was at sample 1713ms, the one before it was 1590ms, subtract and i got 124, next one was 1590 minus 1470 thats 120, so on and so on, right there is a 3 ms jitter. See that is how i calculate it.

Can some of you guys do this test and tell me what you get and what you are using because man hardware really is not sync’d to renoise even when doing basic midi stuff. Well, in windows any how.

http://tutorials.renoise.com/wiki/Preferences#MIDI

Notice that compensate latencies option. Not sure if it will help though.

off topic but I thought you quit Renoise due to discontent

That has nothing to do with jitter. nada. I have tried it all ways.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec07/articles/cubasetech_1207.htm

this explains a lot, i hope that the renoise people read this …

Seems that the 3-4mS you have mentioned is pretty typical and not something that can be solved from within Renoise to me, from the link you yourself posted.

This story isn’t telling anything new here Hexfix.
I quote one phrase from that piece that practically gives you the answer why:

This counts for every single host.
In a lot of cases Cubase can improve a little better because Steinberg made agreements with hardware vendors and Steinberg builds their own drivers for their host, such kind of luxury that the majority of host programmers (including the Renoise development team) have not thus you have to rely on the available Windows drivers for the hardware only.

In Windows you have two choices regarding midi drivers:The WDM driver (DirectMusic) or the original slow MMC driver (which should be the midi driver choice without the WDM remark in Renoise).
Not all midi input hardware sets have WDM drivers and no, WDM drivers aren’t saint drivers unfortunately though some soundcards do a better job than others on this area.
Now this is simply regarding Midi timing and Windows.

As for the timing model which could offer some software technical improvement: i can assure you that Renoise is not using timestamp based timing for its processing and for the resolution possible, you should be able to record over 4096ppq if you are going to max out some stuff in Renoise like raising the LPB (and expanding the pattern canvas to 512 lines for keeping session blocks grouped in one pattern as much as possible). If that doesn’t improve stuff, then it boils down to the hardware and its drivers and then the limitations mentioned above simply count.

Another interesting part from the piece i read was about the 0.1ms latency possibility…
I personally doubt latency can be reduced to 0.1mseconds as for those kind of latencies, i suspect you kinda need fiber optic connections which midi cables certainly are not.
The resistance factor of your wiring also determines whether your pulse signal is interpreted in time. The higher the resistance, the smaller the real peak.
This is the ideal situation:

But wiring resistance is usually causing this:

So your pulses are not generated picture perfect like the above scene from the following picture, but frankly looks more like the scene below it.

I also avoid USB midi devices simply because my USB bus is shared by a lot of other devices thus snooping off interrupts.

wow vV, great explanation, thanks!

So what midi devices should one use, everything is usb. I cannot even find a pci or serial port midi interface.

I would prefer serial port, that was tight in the old days. windows 64 kind of ruins it all.

Why doesn’t renoise use a time stamp?

http://www.dankadata.com/ddd001.html

Wish i could find one of these.

I mean it doesn’t use a timing system based on milliseconds (because that is less accurate).

As for fast midi hardware, try a PCI(x) audio interface with an internal midi port.
I personally have an ESI ESP1010e and it does his job fine also regarding audio latency. Before that i used a Terratec Dmx6 Fire PCI which also was very tight with Midi. Unfortunately, Windows 7 support (or 64-bit drivers in general) sucks for the Terratec.

So I guess windows users are Fubar on midi then.

Sucks that mac support for plugins is inferior to pc and hence why i dont use the mac anymore.

I am an audio snob, I run lynxtwo l22 cause it sounds AMAZING. So pissed that it doesnt have midi.

Why isnt there a dedicated pci midi board by now, you think that with all this midi talk about jitter and latency someone would of made it.

Not without audio interface there isn’t.
If you make a PCI interface, you also have to make drivers for it which in turn costs development time so i can understand in that matter it is only worthwhile if you do that for a complete audio interface that supports a midi port.
For a USB interface you can simply build to follow generic behavior and let the Microsoft driver do the rest so this means you don’t need to write drivers for it yourself.
Making a USB interface in that regard is easier and cheaper for the manufacturer so therefore most Midi-only interfaces are USB.
Perhaps dedicated USB-Midi interfaces that come with own drivers perform better, but i don’t know and i don’t desire to find out either.

Perhaps you can purchase a cheap PCI audio interface somewhere on the net (or on ebay) that comes with a midi input socket.

I did just that, I ordered an m-audio audiophile 2496 just for midi. Still want to use the lynx as the main sound card and that just for midi.

After i ordered it i read all kinds of people bitching about it cause it sucks under windows 7 64 bit. There are 64 bit drivers that work for win 7, but man people say they are having trouble, thats all i get is trouble, over and over no matter what i buy i get what doesn’t work great.

Windows is the best platform, it has the best support, more vst support, things you cannot get on a mac, so tight midi with a pc is what i desire most.

After getting my mopho and comparing it to the soft synths, and man i like sylenth1, the spectrasonics stuff, and the new zeta 2 and tyrell nexus 6. But man those just lack something especial for leads and up high notes, real analog is just way better. I cant live with out it, and i need it to be tight for my dance tracks.

Bought the audiophile 2596, installed newest drivers, did the test again, this is pci.

3 ms of jitter. I can live with this. Not 5, but 3. so a 2ms improvement over my usb midi.

We are very aware of this. And back then, also as a result of this, have added support for WDM MIDI drivers in Renoise. Let me try to explain and clear this up a bit. This whole topic is confusing as hell.

The “usual” Windows MIDI drivers, which are still used everywhere (called “MME MIDI”) are based on a technology from the 80s, the multi media implementation of Windows16. Those basically have no support for timestamping, aka applications must somehow try to send out MIDI data in time by their own. This is impossible. How good that works, depends on a shitload of stuff, like the running audio driver, speed of the system, if something else in the system blocks stuff and a lot more. In summary this will always cause a wonky timing. Sometimes more, sometimes less. In overall, using very small audio buffer sizes helps to improve timing. That’s basically the only thing you can do as user.

Steinberg then created new dedicated hardware, to solve this problem (this Midex HW line - Emagic also started building some), which solves this problem by letting the hardware send out MIDI in time, instead of doing this within windows. This is a lot lot more reliable. They also pushed a new MIDI driver standard, DirectMIDI (based on WDM) to be used. This protocol allows timestamping MIDI events: if the hardware supports timestamps, it will take care about the timing. If not, then at least the operating system takes care of the timing, which can do this a lot better than “applications” in general cause it has a more low level access to HW.

We do support those new kind of drivers. They will show up as “Some Name (WDM)” in Renoise. So if you are the lucky owner of a device which is built around this new technology, then this MAY result in better timing. MAY, because its still up to the drivers and HW to do a good or bad job at timing. Especially in the beginning, a lot of those WDM drivers did an even worse job than the old drivers, because, well, it was a kinda new standard. This may have changed over the years.

Summa summarum, with or without “(WDM)” drivers, its really really hard to get reliable MIDI timing on Windows. In any application. And this is not only a Renoise problem. Every music app fights with this on Windows. OSX solved this decades ago already in a neat way. MIDI timing on OSX usually is rarely a problem. There either the drivers use timestamped events. If NOT, the OS does a pretty great job in sending out events in time.

Great explanation, thank you very much. How does Linux compare in this context?

Taktik: Great explanation. I just wish someone would get the hardware and drivers right on a multi in and out pci device. I hate usb. Usb on windows is bad no matter what you do. On the Mac its fantastic. The mac lacks in software support, i hate that a lot of my favorite plugs were pc only.

Doesn’t matter now, i have good midi, even though I am limited to 1 in 1 out :(

I know this is with all windows music apps as well, i have tested them all and they all failed. I bet with this, its all tight now.

Assume you mean the 2496 yeah? Not heard of a 2596 and as the numbers stand for highest bit depth and sample rate a 25 would be weird!

How many have you tried? From the previous posts of yours it seems this is one of the first PCI cards you have used. You’ve gone from saying you want a dedicated PCI MIDI device (no audio) to one with multiple in/outs. Strange…

There are many PCI audio interfaces with MIDI and multiple I/O! Some even can take expansion board to extend their functionality, like the RME cards.

M-Audio seem to be getting pretty well known for poor driver support these days so not somebody I would overly recommend. Thomann list 14 PCI cards with MIDI, if you from there look through them or narrow down by the selections on the left as to number of outputs required I would be very surprised if you don’t find something! I don’t know where you’re from but most countries have a returns policy where you can return goods within a certain time for any reason (28 days I believe in the UK.)

Thomann PCI with MIDI Audio Interfaces

Good luck with finding something suitable.

it was the 2496, i typo’d lol.

The problem with one midi in and out, you have to daisy chain with midi through, and i know this messes up your timing on some synths as well.

Sucks. If i am tracking, its not that hard to switch cables. But i would prefer not to.

As far as i know the rme cards are 1 in 1 out jsut like maudio but cost a butt load more for something i dont need. I am using a lynx l22 for audio and it rocks so hard, sounds so amazing. I jsut want like a amt8 or unitor, or mark of the unicorn midi sport or what not interface with many outs so i dont have to use thru.

I know that i want to stay with lynx cards now, they just sound so great at the right price.

You mean multiple MIDI? Sorry I misunderstood. Thought you meant multiple audio I/O so that you didn’t have to use you USB interface alongside it for audio. I know there are one or two but they really are not cheap!

EG. RME HSDP9625 has 2x MIDI I/O @ £425 (but also a lot of digital I/O with 3x ADAT and SPDIF, hence the price. Fairly cheap for the amount of I/O on there are doesn’t need ADC/DAC.)

EMU 1616M also has 2x MIDI I/O and is PCI. (£389)

Sure I’d seen others… Obviously loads of multi MIDI I/O USB devices but you will be back to the same old Windows problem, even with high quality ones such as the MOTU range. Or maybe they can get around some of the problems with hardware with a slight overall latency?.. Not sure I would want to rely on the fact but as mentioned before you should be able to return, depending on policy in your country. (MOTU MIDI Devices

Good luck as there really does seem to be far less than I thought!..