Y'olde Linux Vs Windows Flamewars..

[vvoois (vV)]

I’ve taken the linux vs windows element out of the renoise in Linux discussion as it doesn’t really belong there so i just continue right here:

@Johann

Compared to windows… which simply overwrites the MBR without even asking? Why do you think the number one advice windows users give for most problems is “format and reinstall”? Because windows is a piece of crap and educates users to be “next” clicking idiots and nothing more. It’s built on dishonest, selfish intentions and that shows. “Where do you want to go today” is a perfect example of double speak, it means the exact opposite.

Yes, sitting on a train is easier than assembling a car and steering it… but even then Microsoft manages to be a constant PITA. Whereas once you have a decent Linux system running, it stays running. And running and running. Freaking google is built on Linux, do you seriously think they considered Windows for even the fraction of a second? Do you think they would have used it if it was free, or even if Microsoft had payed them to use it? I don’t think so…
/end rant

I agree very well with you that Windows is not based upon honest business since day one (read this for your own information: http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/microsoft/IhateMS_8.html ) but what i actually try to say is not that i would like to defend Windows but to press on the things that matter for most windows users to step over to Linux which is that it currently is way to cumbersome when it comes to the next step after it has been installed and running.

Actual computer noobs would find any platform cumbersome but this does not mean that simple tasks should become a whole quest asking hours of your time even for the more experienced users.

Just face the fact that Microsoft has indoctrinated people by spoiling them with comprehensive system behavior. People don’t want to RTFM or at least not thick blocks of paperworks that require two hours of attention and concentration just to get your mouse working.

A good example from my own experience, installing Linux on a brand new pc for a client. No problem, this was done very quickly, then i had to install the peripherals:

I spend a whole afternoon just installing Linux printer drivers for a simple MFC-printer from brother and i had to browse various forums and perform various installations methods to have the cups and lpr drivers installed without any errors and when i got that running i still did not figured out why it eventually went okay but happy as it worked out i was not done yet. Some wasting of another few hours were nessesary, trying to undestand why i still couldn’t get it to print to finally figure out i had to manually change the cups config files to let Linux know the right hardware path to the printer to get it going. I had read over 7 different methods to change the cups configuration for that specific brother model only and before i found the actual one that actually helped me out i had to wrestle myself through a lot of copies of the same solution being reposted across several Linux forums around the net. This is even frustrating for me and i can’t believe an average Linux user likes Linux this way…

While Linux may be a lot more stable than Windows and currently not really the center of attention for spyware and malware mobsters, a lot of things are not as obvious as users would expect and if the answer to a problem may be around somewhere online, it is sometimes still seeking for a needle in a haystack. So this whole hardware abstraction method used in Linux is still far from perfect while it could actually be a lot better than windows (considering the fact that Linux has a far better system update foundation frame, driver support could also be as good)

Yes Windows is not something i adore, actually the founders of the Microsoft corp do not have my sole support but they set a tone to the mass that no advanced Linux user can turn:“i want it and i want it now and it does not have to cost me too much energy to get this done”

The mass of people are dumb or/and lazy (excuse me mass of people for my generalising way of stating) and the mass of people determine the biggest marketshare.

I doubt the core Linux community desires the biggest marketshare in the world but i guess they have a whole barnload of STFU for linux noobs that again cry out for the same questions that have been asked over and over again.

So how can this STFU be arranged then? Stealing one idea of Microsoft that doesn’t have copyright: Playing in on the mass-desire by improving the comprehension of Linux and take more manual things out of the hands of the user. Actually it is the most simple solution and the knowledge is over centuries old.

The mass wants an easy solution. Make it, figure out a way of spreading and you get the biggest customer share.

[Conner_Bw]

Ketchup is sold more than hot sauce, does that make ketchup better?

Briefly, I once worked in a fortune 500 investment bank with thousands of employees worldwide. The backbone of the company was Linux servers.

Do I use Linux at home? No.

Sorry to hear about your printer problems… but Linux is alive and well and your anecdotal personal experiences doesn’t affect Linux, nor will it ever.

[engine]

Ketchup is sold more than hot sauce, does that make ketchup better?

Briefly, I once worked in a fortune 500 investment bank with thousands of employees worldwide. The backbone of the company was Linux servers.

Do I use Linux at home? No.

isnt that some kind of selfexplaining?! its a matter of the given context.
when you use it for big calculations only or as visual interface to arrange sounds.

[Conner_Bw]

On OS X I’ve had to deal with missing drivers for HP scanner and M-Audio drivers for external sound cards. On windows, I’ve had to deal with missing drivers for motherboard RAID components. I’ve had to buy Windows driver upgrades from HP for which a CD was shipped to me in the mail, no downloadable option at the time. You name it, i’ve had problems with it, on all platforms.

@engine

its a matter of the given context.

Exactly, and the context will always be: so long as there are open source programmers using linux, for whatever reason, the user base is irrelevant as they can maintain their own OS for their own means.

[vvoois (vV)]

@Conner_Bw

Exactly, and the context will always be: so long as there are open source programmers using linux, for whatever reason, the user base is irrelevant as they can maintain their own OS for their own means.

The open source component is the only part that supplies the strongest hope and keeps Linux alive.

That’s why i hope that someday there will be nothing left to moan about Linux.

I just started this response to that single remark (easier to shit in my pants than just to walk to the toilet) that gives a false sense that the easability of windows seems to be equivalent to a rediculous idea and this is not true.

That all those ideas are stolen from IBM, Apple and whatever other manufacturer is something folks usually forget so those making such remarks are not insulting Microsoft but Apple and IBM and all those other big companies Microsoft stole ideas from.

Not to mention the Linux wars vs Unix which some folks seem to forget as well…

Have a laught at this:

( http://www.bash.org/?106579 )

Topic in #os: hey guyz, stop pickin on irix.
w00t! i bought unix! im gonna b so rich!
/msg atnt haha. idiot.
whoops. was that out loud?
rotfl
lol
why r u laffin at me?
dude, unix is so 10 years ago. linux is in now.
wtf?
hey guyz, i bought caldera, I have linux now.
<red_hat> haha, your linux sucks.
lol
lol
lol
no wayz, i will sell more linux than u!
your linux sucks, you should look at SuSE
Ja. Wir bilden gutes Linux für IBM.
can we do linux with you?
Ich bin nicht sicher…
cough
Gut lassen Sie uns vereinigen.

• SuSE is now SuSE[UL]
• SCO is now caldera[UL]
  can we play?
  we’re bored… we’ll go too.
  sure!
• turbolinux is now turbolinux[UL]
• conectiva is now conectiva[UL]
  redhat: you should join!
  <SuSE[UL]> Ja! Wir sind vereinigtes Linux. Widerstand ist vergeblich.
  <red_hat> haha. no.
  <red_hat> lamers.
  what about you debian?
  we’ll discuss it and let you know in 5 years.
  <caldera[UL]> no one wants my linux!
  <turbolinux[UL]> i got owned.
  <caldera[UL]> u all tricked me. linux is lame.
• caldera[UL] is now known as SCO
  i’m going back to unix.
  yeah! want to do unix with me?
  haha. no. lamer.
  lol
  snap!
  :~(
  hey, u shut up. im gonna sue u ibm.
  wtf?
  yea, you stole all the good stuff from unix.
  <red_hat> lol
  <SuSE[UL]> heraus laut lachen
  lol
  shutup. i’m gonna email all your friends and tell them you suck.
  go ahead. baby.
  andandand… i revoke your unix! how do you like that?
  oh no, you didn’t. AIX is forever.
  actually, we still own unix, you can’t do that.
  wtf? we bought it from u.
  whoops. our bad.
  i own u. haha
  ibm: give me all your AIX now!
  whatever. lamer.
• ibm sets mode +b SCO!@
• SCO has been kicked from #os (own this.)

[Johann]

Most people also want to drive ridiculous distances and take cheap flights without giving a shit about the consequences, want to be fed entertainment and never, ever think or reflect upon themselves. So what? I don’t think the problem is how to satisfy them, the problem (to me) is how to get RID of them, or at least phase them out; or rather, the people who live off them, the people who want people to stay sheep.

I know this is not realistic, it is arrogant and also stupid in a way, because by that logic, people smarter and less lazy than me could just as well designate me as obsolete. But I can’t lie, this is how I feel, I’m sick of the lowest common denominator. I want to see it crystallize into a huge compound and then be flushed down the toilet, forever.

To me it’s not so much about Linux and the finer points of driver availabilty, it’s about creeping slavery. I don’t even have kids yet and feel threatened already. It’s a mindset. I don’t care wether it manifests in an OS or myspace or advertising that is insulting to any thinking person. I cannot exactly define it, I cannot claim to be free of it, I can’t say I’m efficiently fighting it, but I cannot just let it rest, either.

Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

Your cell phone, your rent, your time, your ideas
No bar code, no party, no ID, no beers
Your bankcard, your license, your thoughts, your fears
No simcard, no disco, no photo, not here
Your blood, your sweat, your passions, your regrets
Your office, your time off, your fashions, your sex
Your pills, your grass, your tits, your ass
Your laughs, your balls. we want it all

We want your Soul x5
(in background…Your Cash, Your House, Your Phone, Your Life)

Tell us your habits, your facts, your fears
Give us your address, your shoe size, your years
Your digits, your plans, your number, your eyes
Your schedule, your desktop, your details, your lives
Show us your children, your photos, your home
Here, take credit, take insurance, take a loan
Get a job, get a pension, get a haircut, get a suit
Play the lottery, play football, play the field, score some toot
We’ll show you things, show you scenes
We’ll buy you drinks, throw away your books
We’ll sell you crack, We’ll charge you max
Were going to buy big guns, with tons of cash

We want your Soul x5
(in background…Your Cash, Your House, Your Phone, Your Life)

Your thoughts, your emotions, your love, your dreams
Your cheque book, your essence, your sweat, your screams
Your security, your sobriety, your innocence, your society
Your self, your place, your distance, your space
[bill hicks]
Go back to bed America, your government is in control again
Here, watch this, shut up
You are free to do as we tell you
You are free to do as we tell you
[/bill hicks]
We want your soul

Here’s gummy bears, here’s matters, here’s Britney, here’s Cola
Here’s pizza, here’s TV, here’s some rock and some Roller
Watch commercials, more commercials, watch Jerry, not Oprah
Buy a better life from the comfort of your sofa
Here’s popcorn, here’s magazines, here’s milkshake, here’s blue jeans
here’s padded bras, here’s armpit wax, here’s football shirts, here’s baseball caps
here’s live talk shows, here’s video games, here’s cola lite, here’s ten more lanes
here’s filter tips, here’s collagen lips, here’s all night bars, here’s plastic tits

We want your soul x5
(In the background…Your Cash, Your House, Your Phone, Your Life)
Your Soul x6

[bill hicks]
Go back to bed America, your government is in control again
Here, here’s American Gladiators
Watch this, shut up
Go back to bed America,
Here’s American Gladiators, here’s 56 channels of it
Watch these pictuary retards bang their f****ing skulls together
And congratulate you on living in the land of freedom
Here you go America
You are free to do as we tell you
You are free to do as we tell you
[/bill hicks]
We want your soul x5

No sex, no strays, no dropouts, no gays
No lefty’s, no loonies, no opinions, no way
No thinkers, no teachers, no facts, no freaks
No skaters, no tweakers, no truth, no way

[Nitrus]

I’m for Linux support! With every release of Ubuntu, Linux is becoming very easy to use. Imagine me, first time using Linux; I had no problems getting Compiz Fusion to work, nor did I have any problems installing my Bluetooth devices. As for my sound drivers, they were installed automatically upon installation. NOT EVEN WINDOWS HAS BEEN ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH THIS. I LOVE UBUNTU! I think the port to Linux is a wonderful idea, just as long as the program does not lose it’s integrity. Why not give the end user the option to decide?

[vvoois (vV)]

@Johann

To me it’s not so much about Linux and the finer points of driver availabilty, it’s about creeping slavery. I don’t even have kids yet and feel threatened already. It’s a mindset. I don’t care wether it manifests in an OS or myspace or advertising that is insulting to any thinking person. I cannot exactly define it, I cannot claim to be free of it, I can’t say I’m efficiently fighting it, but I cannot just let it rest, either.

Creeping slavery and your sense of security is something that lives in your mind only.
What lives in your mind is expressed on your face and that is in its turn, food that attracts more of what’s in your mind in real life. So this is the way to make that what’s in your mind, your daily life reality.
You think such things, and you predominately focus upon that (well okay you said you don’t really fight it but it stays on your mind so you don’t give yourself the chance of clearing it from those thoughts) so that is also what you get and ofcourse you shall keep confirming it once it keeps coming.

You can claim to be free the minute you stop wasting your time thinking of that stuff and start to compensate those thoughts for the things that you really want, at least what do you really want in life? Mock about the things you stated before or rather having more enjoyable thoughts in it?
It is just that simple, but it takes a little while before you get adjusted to it.

[Johann]

@vV

Creeping slavery and your sense of security is something that lives in your mind only.

Well, yes in a way: because there are no absolutes. I am totally dependant on the sun. Does that make me feel “enslaved” (thanks for looking past my harsh choice of words btw)? Nope. Do I even want to be totally independant of everybody? No, that would be sad. But…

You think such things […] so that is also what you get and ofcourse you shall keep confirming it once it keeps coming.

Uhm… no? Do you think for example civilians dying of bombs somehow thought these bombs into existance? Yes, especially in social relations what you said is very true. Negative thinking creates negative reality. But saying that goes for everything is simply not true… in fiction maybe, and esoteric literature… but you can’t generally blame the message on the messenger, or the deed on the victim.

what do you really want in life? Mock about the things you stated before or rather having more enjoyable thoughts in it?

Exactly because I want to have enjoyable things in it, I feel the need to confront the unpleasant stuff. It’s not like I’m constantly trying to find problems in a world that is actually perfect…

He picked up the children’s history book and looked at the portrait of Big Brother which formed its frontispiece. The hypnotic eyes gazed into his own. It was as though some huge force were pressing down upon you — something that penetrated inside your skull, battering against your brain, frightening you out of your beliefs, persuading you, almost, to deny the evidence of your senses. In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense. And what was terrifying was not that they would kill you for thinking otherwise, but that they might be right. For, after all, how do we know that two and two make four? Or that the force of gravity works? Or that the past is unchangeable? If both the past and the external world exist only in the mind, and if the mind itself is controllable what then?

But no! His courage seemed suddenly to stiffen of its own accord. The face of O’Brien, not called up by any obvious association, had floated into his mind. He knew, with more certainty than before, that O’Brien was on his side. He was writing the diary for O’Brien — to O’Brien: it was like an interminable letter which no one would ever read, but which was addressed to a particular person and took its colour from that fact.

The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. His heart sank as he thought of the enormous power arrayed against him, the ease with which any Party intellectual would overthrow him in debate, the subtle arguments which he would not be able to understand, much less answer. And yet he was in the right! They were wrong and he was right. The obvious, the silly, and the true had got to be defended. Truisms are true, hold on to that! The solid world exists, its laws do not change. Stones are hard, water is wet, objects unsupported fall towards the earth’s centre. With the feeling that he was speaking to O’Brien, and also that he was setting forth an important axiom, he wrote:

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

http://www.orwell.ru/library/novels/1984/english/

[Garf]

At the core for the ordinary (windows) consumer, the main thing is that Linux and Mac doesn’t have as much quality software as Windows, which naturally is bad, if all software ran on all OS we would see many people leave Windows. This is why I like the idea for Renoise to be Linux compatible, I hope the big software companies follow suit.

I don’t care what OS i use, but it have to have good software that produce interchangeable documents, it should be intuitive and not look ugly aswell.

With all these new desktops i think it’s time to play with Linux, i will definately try installing Linux now, and with Compiz-Fusion it looks really good, take a peak!

Compiz Fusion Development & Ubuntu 7.10 on Asus Eee PC w/ out-of-the-box Compiz

Happy new year

[norton (nsound)]

it’s true - try getting linux to play with off shelf laptop wireless / edirol soundcards / find the correct screen resolution / play mp3’s / play wma’s etc without a hell of a lot of faffing around - even installing simple programmes usually means taking a trip down the ol’ cmd prompt lane - once it is up an running then fine - but it’s a bit daunting if you aint a techie

pls ubuntu crashes on start if you turn your wireless button off - if it wasn’t for dual booting i’d be up shit creek