Advanced Automation Editor


(thunk) #12

Personally, the biggest problem for me with the automation editor is that it’s strictly locked to the pattern length. I’ve got to add 16 points to the editor just to do a simple linear fade over 8 patterns. And then if I remove a pattern or two, I have to reconnect the dots all over again. It would be nice if I could just insert a point at the beginning of the fade, and one at the end, and everything would just work without having to worry about the pattern edges. This would break the way that automation clips are all independent of each other, I understand that, but I think it would be worthwhile.

I agree. I imagine it’s a nightmare from the devs’ point of view. But if it’s possible, even a global “Continuous automation envelopes (no pattern breaks)” option would be really great.

(And tension handles, and automation muting, and and and … we whine, but it’s for the greater good :))


(lhaastdaiz) #13

I’ve got to add 16 points to the editor just to do a simple linear fade over 8 patterns

To be fair, this is something you can already do with the line tool.

http://tutorials.renoise.com/wiki/Graphical_Automation#Automation_Tools


(Andrey Marchenko) #14

Like to see that people really care about Automation & Editor. DEVs just turn off this annoying lock function for automation lines in patterns!


(J.Yarmosh) #15

So if we talk about mixing - its all about volume. From start to end we need tochange volume of each instrument. So than we creating the balance.Butnow its just impossible forwhole track. And its the shame for real DAW for real mixing. Yes, iam a tracker musician, but i`am a sound engineer also. And i need a normalautomation on whole tracks no interruptings by patterns regions.

Ok. I use a nanoKontrol for a automation while playing. But Renoise cant calibrate the post volume! Its need to use a “gain” of the top of the effects-chain. Gain? Really? Its ruined the balance. The controller makes many mistakes. Its just unconfortable. So we really need the post fader automation like it`s done for pre-fader. Post fader automation for WHOLE track.

When mix is done. All track are ready for MIXING. Its all about volume. Like an orchestra. I have a mixboard and each instrument on own channel. Andits need to conduct by faders. By Post-faders. Post-volume.Not by gain-effect. This is mixing as is. This is faders conductby controller or just use automation on whole track from start to end.And i just want mixing in favorite Renoise.


(Skolskoly) #16

To be fair, this is something you can already do with the line tool.

http://tutorials.renoise.com/wiki/Graphical_Automation#Automation_Tools

oh…

I wish I had known about this a long time ago, haha. Thanks.


(Raul (ulneiz)) #17

Hi Skolskoly.

I’ll put a few simple steps to make connections between línes in various patterns.Anyone who begins with the automation editor initially found a sea of problems of edition.Not select multiple patterns to copy, paste, drag…

Each pattern is worked separately, and is a burden.Creating lines between patterns is tedious. The best way I use are these steps (I use 10 patterns and Panning parameter:

  1. Example: the song has 10 patterns of 64 rows (0-63).
  2. Select “Automation Editor” and Time in “Grid”. Widen the window dragging up maximum to work comfortably.
  3. Select “Panning” parameter in left list (default selected is “Volume” parameter).
  4. Left click mouse in pattern four for select this.
  5. Double left click mouse in “Panning” parameter for create a point in four pattern in the beginningwith default value (center). Initially the Automation Editor working in “linear”.
  6. Change “linear” per “points” (this helps create lines easily between two widely separated points between patterns).You will have a point with “center” value.
  7. Left click mouse in pattern nine random,without releasing the left button, drag to the value 30R at the end of the row 63.
  8. Change “linear” per “points” again.
  9. Linking the first point to the second point using the line tool (use the mouse wheel to zoom horizontally if necessary).
  10. Repeat the steps to create sawtooth on these or future patterns (11, 12, 13…).

All these steps serve to create a clean line between two points in two very separate patterns.If you use the line tool continuously, you will have problems in some cases.

Each line through each pattern is defined by 2 points, first one and the second at the end.If you have joined 6 patterns, actually have 12 points.In this case, with a continuous slope line, if you delete an intermediate pattern, you create a rung or jump. To join, you must create a full line of new, erasing earlier.No option to initially change the linear function or points.Need to work with each pattern separately, without being able to select a group of patterns and change.

So yes, I am in part agree with you.With the editor you can work and make lines, but work cased continuously without a global vision within the own edition, and that’s what most angry.

A new way to select multiple patterns in a group would click above each pattern in the editor automation.It would be like a kind horizontal selection button complete pattern.Then copy, cut or drag patterns group.

For me, drag to select multiple patterns in the pattern editor is essential.Perhaps in the future could the matrix editor only joined each parameter automation automation editor used. Select, drag and drop in the matrix editor, without affecting the pattern editor and your notes.

Can develop many new things …

So 2 more ideas:

  1. Using the Matrix Editoraffecting only the previously selected parameter automation.Expand the Matrix Editor window horizontally to understand.
  2. Add a button above each pattern in the Automation Editor,to select multiple patterns, copy, cut, paste or drag an drop as a whole.

(thunk) #18

J.Yarmosh:

Its need to use a "gain" of the top of the effects-chain. Gain? Really? Its ruined the balance.

I actually love the lack of automation on the post faders. It gives you the freedom to mess with the mix at any time, without worrying about screwing it up, or having the faders locked to the automation during playback.

I put a mix volume Doofer at the end of each track FX chain (a slight modification of what the manual suggests).

It’s just a Gainer in a Doofer, with a Volume macro knob mapped to the Gain, scaled how I like (Min: -INF, Max: +12.025dB, set to the steepest exponential (#4 in the list).

So a 0.75 in the automation lane puts you right at 0dB. 0.5 is about -12dB. 0.25 is about -24dB, and so on. And there’s +12dB of headroom (0.75 - 1.0 in the automation lane) when you really want to slam the limiter.

Personal preference. Use your ears, as always.

Then all the Mixer Post faders sit at 0dB. I can experiment with them any time, knowing a double-click will reset it to the “real” mix.

If I like a change I’ve made, I translate it to the Doofer’s automation underneath.

I think this is the Renoise-endorsed workflow, and I’m fond of it.


Edit: The pattern-breaks in the automation lane are admittedly annoying, but possibly too deeply ingrained in Renoise’s architecture to change. I dunno. Every DAW has its strengths and weaknesses.


Edit2: But tension handles, point types (exponential and hold), and per-parameter automation “muting”! Whine!


(Andrey Marchenko) #19

Ok. Bump for this topic!


(xbitz) #20

can be retrigger one-shoot LFOs with given(empty) sample triggered key trackers, it can’t be a problem :slight_smile:

and the LFOs can be set to any length(dynamically too), unfortunately as I see multiple LFOs can’t be assigned to same target so doofer and multi macro with same target have to be used, but at least it phrase compatible


(Andrey Marchenko) #21

This is not the same.


(danoise) #22

Also next thing that i want to see is Editing for automation of different tracks (or for several parameters for one track):

I’m with you on this one. It’s great having multiple parameters side-by-side (well, top-to-bottom) for the larger picture.

Could be implemented a single checkbox, “pinned”, which would make the selected parameter stay affixed while still allowing you to browse freely.
And then it would really make sense to allow at least a single pattern to be blown up in size (Ext.Editor button), like this:

stacked-env.png?raw=1

It’s similar to the picture you did, except that I’m not taking over the space of the pattern editor.
In my version, the pattern editor would be visible where the expanded editor is - the “middle panel”.


(joule) #23

(inviting a tool hack using the parameters of [placeholder]device to act as math operands combined to generate an automation curve)


(Raul (ulneiz)) #24

Thank you for this!!! :

I’m with you on this one. It’s great having multiple parameters side-by-side (well, top-to-bottom) for the larger picture.

Could be implemented a single checkbox, “pinned”, which would make the selected parameter stay affixed while still allowing you to browse freely.
And then it would really make sense to allow at least a single pattern to be blown up in size (Ext.Editor button), like this:

stacked-env.png

It’s similar to the picture you did, except that I’m not taking over the space of the pattern editor.

In my version, the pattern editor would be visible where the expanded editor is - the “middle panel”.

Please Danoise, you could talk to Taktik for this issue to take priority?To meet all the ideas on this topic and look forward to improve Automation Editor.This screenshot is superb!Obviously need to add controls to improve the editing, but certainly the idea is easily seen! …A vertical scroll bar, perhaps?

Please do not let this issue be forgotten!!! I’m sure this likes everyone. It has enormous potential!!!

I hope that forum members realize the great advantages of this issue, and comment to improve…and support!!!

How is the best way to edit multiple patterns simultaneously easily?

Here I see two parts:

  1. Edit each individual pattern, as in the screenshot.Have several parameters in view at once is great for the control!
  2. Easily edit multiple patterns together.I do not speak the horizontal zoom, but how to edit multiple patterns simultaneously, with keyboard, mouse, etc.

What about the issue of overlapping several layers???Would it be too complicated?


(The_Traveler) #25

Multi-track automation editing

+1

:slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:


(joule) #26

Yes. Even though this would be a very slick improvement, perhaps it’s worth considering further implications and maybe possible to refine the idea?

For example, what about having user definable set of “views”, where automation from any track and dsp could be added to a view?

renoise.song().automation_views – table

renoise.song():automation_view(1) – table

renoise.song():automation_view(1):parameter(x) -> { track_index, device_index, parameter_index } or perhaps “parameter_object”

In the GUI this might be implemented in a song wide “Automation views” tab, that might not seem justified, though. The benefit would be to autogenerate views like “all automation in track” or “all reverb automation in song”.


(Zer0 Fly) #27

This is a good ideas, I find it painful to sync 2 or more automation tracks in the current state.

Also it is painful to only have that red line indicating playing position…to sync automation graphs with note data, which is an essential task imho.

Fun thing is that the red line syncing depends on rotating position 90° to vertical to know your position in pattern. First I thought, a blast it you’ll need time to get used, then I tried and it just worked. But it requires a lot of zapping to and fro in a pattern, because I find the easiest sync is with graphical markers, while counting through lines/grids decelerates workflow. So mark note ons/offs of chosen tracks in the automation editor somehow, it should help.

I say this, because I would find it useful to have visual representation of chosen automation graphs next to the note data. So…kind of dedicated automation tracks. You just click em, and have them at the bottom, then shift or ctrl click another and it will be above/below, and the graph tracks marked with color. Please think about this if you ever think about making vertical wavefor view audio tracks, I think this would be somehow related. I repeat, 90° turning in the head sounds strange, but at least for me it works.

I think I even once dreamt that this feature was in my renoise, but I can’t remember. Probably I woke up and then renoise was back to the normal state. Dreaming is so sad…


(Jalex) #28

Vertical and with individual oscilloscope


(Andrey Marchenko) #29

So yesterday i asked:

Is it possible that we will see ability to create non-linear automation curves across patterns? I mean now all locked in patterns and across patterns i can draw only straight lines. I know about tools that can generate exponential curves but this is not the same when you create curves by your hands.

And got official answer about :

Right now, each automation envelope belongs directly to a specific pattern, and is therefore limited by the boundaries of the pattern itself. What you’re suggesting would require a major overhaul of the entire automation system, and we have no plans to do that any time soon.

No, no and once again no. Sad.


(Raul (ulneiz)) #30

So yesterday i asked:

And got official answer about :

No, no and once again no. Sad.

I am commenting on this other topic related in some way.It is clear that Renoise “is parked”.Possibly add some more feature and error correction. But waiting for them to fix important things of weight, is going to be very arduous and desperate.

I am coming to the conclusion that “Renoise 3.1” is considered the best possible by the Renoise Team, and to move forward, it will be a question of changing the bases of the same and programming from scratch.I already mentioned it once: philosophy is doing what is just and necessary to make it work.The best example is the Automation Editor.You can edit, but with just with the minimum, without advanced tools.

The Sample Editor was born this way, but it was perfected.It looks like the Automation Editor will still be abandoned, besides other things…


(Ionix) #31

"Global Automation" would be great…For a very professional result…

In my advice,the best place should be in a tab “Global” ,between “mix” and “sampler”

WaveForm audio track could also take place here.

The “zoomable” Global interface could look this:


[1] [2] [4] [4] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x][x] [x] [x] ->patterns sequence


////////////////////////////////___/////////\ ->Curve x (ObjectType - Object id - [SubObject id] - Parameter id)

///////////////_________/////////////////////\ ->curve 1 (Track - #3 - Flanger - Feedback)

////////////////////////////////////////////\ ->curve 2 (Group - #7 - Compressor - Ratio)

/////______/////////////////////////////////\ ->curve 3 (VSTI - Moog - Filter Cutoff)