I’m not saying there shouldn’t be a native piano roll, I just don’t care if we never get one. It’s hardly an emotional reaction to suggest that you bark up the right tree if a piano roll is important to you. They’re out there if you want 'em!
There might be good arguments for the inclusion of a piano roll, i.e. greater accessibility, facilitated harmonic progression composition with limited user theory knowledge, visual approaches to composition, etc. But, there is at least one good argument against the development of a native piano roll, too, that being that it would detract time and energy from other development that is more deeply aligned with the core vision of renoise as a tracker-based approach to a DAW. Development time/effort is a finite resource, and maybe a piano roll isn’t a high developmental priority. Maybe it is, we’ll see, but I’m not holding my breath for one, or for the next release, or for any of the features I do care about. I’m just busy writing music.
Try Renoise Tools subforum to do extra things you want to do? There’s quite a lot of flexibility in the program with those, it seems.
Piano Roll gets updated frequently, and looking at the development over time is very interesting. Some functions get added over time, and while yeah, it’s not built in-- that’s what the plug-ins features are for.
Although I more agree with your point of view, but I think that this user meant that the target audience is quite wide. The piano (albeit virtual) is a hobby that can be enjoyed by people with very different professions or demographic characteristics. The portrait of the target client is likely to be difficult to describe, because the audience is really very wide.
as far as i remember my first week with renoise is more like " havent even scratched the surface i guess, its all so weird, but cool. at least i got my first loop goin"
and i went on using it and "even scratched " after 6 years i consider now the understatement of the century.
“in russia…a week is nothing”
;D
and as a user i dont get that deluded compulsion about “targeted customers” at all. looks like everyone nowadays is obsessed of being an economical/financial expert tryin to optimize YOURSELF and the PRODUCT to max out the benefits or what?
i dont give a shit about other customers.
i have tested renoise, i bought renoise, i use renoise for making weird stuff. works fine so far. and if others have some important stuff to add, well fine appreciated, i use that too.
“With all that Big Willie talk, hop, you’re, playin’ yaself”
You are right. I won’t make that mistake again. Don’t want to bother the stuck community. Have fun with your old dead soundtracker. I have so much fun with other DAWs and those new features that fall each month.
@taktik : please remove ALL my posts in ALL threads, thanks!
(even if that breaks some useless talkings, I don’t care about it)
…But he is coding right now…! This leaves an unfair impression, why are you such insulted? I would miss your (non-insulted) posts You can start the next mutant breaks compo yourself, or ask for support here first. Since it was the “most unorganized compo” on the planet, it needs at least a bit organisation first, and won’t arrive alone by itself…
That’s some senseless stupid childish whining, I’m sure you can do better than that. You don’t care about Renoise and this forum, that’s fine. I’m sure @taktik does, and you want him to destroy content of the forum because you’re pouting for whatsoever. Grow up, dude!
I just heard the tracking community shout out “Rosebud!” and felt left out if I didn’t make a comment. People are not always liking the same things let’s talk about what renoise is and isn’t…
It is:
A tracker, created originally for a very (very) specific type of musician and community. It is not surprise live musicians wouldn’t really want to use it to begin with. It is like trying to eat a hot dog with a hamburger bun, it just don’t work.
A veteran and a scholar:
the development cycle of electronic music split into 3 major parts by the late '90s. The trackers (Impulse, ScreamTracker, etc), the performers (Cakewalk (then Sonar), Cubase, etc), and the loopers (also referred to as the “rich” tracker, who used stuff like Rewire, Reaktor, Fruityloops, etc)
So it breaks down like this:
The performers were the live bands trying to make use of what was obvious to eventually replace current studio equipment, and the loopers were just along for the ride in hopes of becoming performers.
The trackers, who originated from what was often referred to as the “demoscene” (or just “demos”, remember these three groups didn’t talk to each other so the lingo overlapped)
Because of this, software developers had to choose which crowd to serve. Unfortunately, as it often does, money wins the day (that is, who has and makes the most). The loopers and performers started merging and the trackers had to make a choice. Now we are here, renoise tries its best to keep the fire going but it is quickly going out due to high standards that are upheld by the two (larger) groups (the ones with lots of money). Renoise tries to not alienate its original audience but at the same time make room for the higher standards. As the saying goes, you can’t please everyone all the time.
To make things simple, I’ll say this: I am two musicians: The one who records live and makes real music that is recorded and performed live. The other is tracking: this kind of music is generally written solo on a PC in some random corner after about 9 cups of coffee and who knows what else :). If you aren’t a tracker, you likely won’t like renoise.
To the renoise staff, I hope they realize there are quite a few things that they added that just don’t work in the real world for live situations:
Handling of MIDI Devices: There is not enough support for surfaces, and renoise is far to zealous (look below about that) on settings. Other things require far too much setup than any musician wants to do live.
Audio: Loss, and more loss. I have had more “ghosts” in my tracks even when everything is 100% clean on a given day, then other days have it be fine - I’m not talking about the versions with the intended demo noise, im talking about the glitches that happen for seemingly no reason to samples that are recorded. Audio seems to optimized for short clips, as it should be for a tracker, but don’t expect to record session clips without some “problems”.
Renoise has an “over reaching” problem, as I call it. It likes to think it is the center of the universe, especially on my setups, which is great, if it is the host app which if I am tracking, it is. But if you try to bring it into DAW with other components, and expect it to play nice (and trust me it won’t) think again. Anything from rewriting jack-patch settings and alsa connections to blatently ignoring MIDI settings or worse, resetting MIDI connections that I just spent a half hour setting up. I imagine this was to solve certain issues to make things work, but it was clearly not tested in a setup where it is a client along side other components.
Well thats it, I said my peace, I felt left out, now I can rest in peace!
Rosebud!
-og tracking since 198? (actually cant remember…serious!)
I think most people here would agree that some updates and upgrades are definitely welcomed, I think this is common ground even though a lot of people here may disagree about other topics… my biggest grip with Renoise (which I love, it’s my favorite DAW) is the lack of feature updates and workflow improvements. Last big update was VST3 support iirc, which is great don’t get me wrong but that was 2 years ago.
Whatever is changed, just don’t remove a goddam thing. Commands and other things have changed through the years and it’s pain in the ass. I don’t spend my time studying the forum and all the changes, Renoise to me is like a guitar, you don’t change aspects of the guitar every month, then you will never be comfortable playing it.
Maybe it’s my age, but I like everything and am satisfied with everything. The main thing is that the renoise works on my computer. It has been said many times: if you cannot do something in the usual way, think about how you can get around it. This is not only a great exercise for the mind, but also a creative process that can lead to unexpected results. The main advantage of renoise is that I don’t think about the interface at all, but only what I’m working on.
I don’t really get it that people want a product to be all and everything. It’s like being angry that your lawn mower doesn’t also function as fridge to cool your beer. It’d be sweet if it did. But not particularly necessary or useful, frankly.
Like Jalex says, you can do pretty much anything in Renoise. You might have to work a bit harder to get there. And who knows what interesting things you find along the way.
I don’t have any experience with the glitches you mentioned. And I record long audio all the time. I used to have trouble with some older Focusrite Scarlett interfaces. But that has nothing to do with Renoise, that was because their Windows drivers sucked.
Though it can be done, Renoise isn’t a great multitrack tape machine. But things like Reaper or Pro-Tools are. So I use a program like that to record my individual tracks.
Regarding HEX, why not give an option in the config UI to use numbers from 0 to 99? Takes 2 digits. Even 3 digits is fine. (Option to select HEX, DEC 0-99, DEC 0-256)
Even though I am a programmer, it’s not natural for me to use HEX. Especially that in other places like sampler you do not see hex numbers but decimal ones.
To me discussions about superiority of hex are bikeshedding. Even elitism, feeling superior because one can use hexadecimal.
Ability to use decimal to me is a cheap way to widen the community.
“I don’t really get it that people want a product to be all and everything. It’s like being angry that your lawn mower doesn’t also function as fridge to cool your beer. It’d be sweet if it did. But not particularly necessary or useful, frankly.”
It’s a matter of perspective, an OG FT2 producer might say the same thing about FT2. But I guess the main point here is the fact that the DAW standards have raised quite significantly in the last 10 years and Renoise is technically marketed as a DAW so… wishing it to receive quality of life updates (which is different from "wanting it to do everything) isn’t unreasonable at all, some people actually see the potential of Renoise being more than a lawn mower, haha.
Or less in comparison to a common DAW. It depends…
If somebody can say something about long recordings, you’re the one. And yeah, the Focusrite Scarlett interfaces kinda suck. There’s always a glitch respectively crackle at the beginning of every sound that you’re playing for the first time, for example if you click on a YT video or if you start to play an MP3. Or if you simply switch from your common soundcard to the interface. Of course these crackles doesn’t exist in reality, neither in any YT video nor at the beginning of any MP3. I cannot recommend Focusrite Scarlett stuff. Maybe that’s also the reason for some blue screens. Anyway…
We are many millions of tracker users.
The tracker originaltes on the Commodore 64 and was coded by Chris Hülsbeck in 1986 and published for free.
That spread the the Amiga 500 computer in 1987 where another german composers created the Soundtracker. 4 mono channels, with full stereo seperation, 8 bit samples. This became the MOD format.
The crackers stole Soundtracker and it becamse PROTRACKER. (1988)
On the pc scene, came now various tracker, and it all ends with there being many variations of tracker, where as of now Renoise is actually a full modular synth and has anything you ever need.
But alas, if you didnt use a tracker for 40 years, I can see that it may be a technical challenge!
Personally I also have Studio One, but i dont know when I switch. I just sometimes do tunes in S1, but mostly in Renoise.
Your programming skills in drumming, is the main advantage in Renoise, or if you use REDUX inside Studio One (everything on 1 screen, like Renoise)
You can start the next mutant breaks compo yourself, or ask for support here first. Since it was the “most unorganized compo” on the planet, it needs at least a bit organisation first, and won’t arrive alone by itself…