I am creating a new thread because I feel it’s just slipping under the radar for over 10 years
Adjusting the attack phase with the slightest amount of 0.1 ms ,significantly alters the modulation Initial amount (shown by green line ) .
I would like to see this fixed over anything else in renoise .
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But this only in the graphics, or also in audio?
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by the way there really is a problem with the starting point. for example if you use ringmod overlap then the beginning of the signal comes with artifacts
BASE_SNT_000.xrni (2.4 KB)
AUdio , otherwise it would be a NON issue
First reported 10 years ago
Renoise just needs an overhaul for these envelopes whichare dependent on tpl
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This is not a simple fix, but requires a complete redesign of the modulation, which by itself already is tough. On top of this we’d also need to keep all the old behavior for backwards compatibility.
This won’t happen anytime soon. Sorry.
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O.K.
But perhaps it’s time to stop building upon those old foundations .
I understand that compatibily with older songs is important but at what cost ?
We can just use an version of renoise 3.x to load older songs .
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Is it not a non-issue? I show no difference in max level reached with various renders of different (short) attack times. It seems only graphical, which although not ideal, ain’t a big deal if it doesn’t impact the sound output…
The envelope in the sample modulation does not get applied sample precise, but in event rates of 256 times per pattern line (not the TPL rate).
Further, the changes do get smoothed on a sample level, low pass filtered to avoid clicks. The smoothing changes with the destination. Filters for example need slower change rates to avoid clicks than volume. This usually is a good thing, but not always.
That’s gentleclockdividers point, which is valid.
At the end, your ears always should judge all this. If it sounds fine, it is fine.
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I see. I was looking at amplitude modulation as opposed to filter modulation
apologies to @gentleclockdivider for misunderstanding and the facile dismissal
a demo song automating the problemetic parameter to show the difference would be handy here, I think you need to input the exact cutoff ahdsr settings as shown in gentleclockdividers screenshot for it to be heard.
What would be the correct behavior? When adding attack there is supposed to be a gradual increase in amplitude right? So at 0 there is full amplitude, and at the moment the attack parameter is increased above 0 you’re increasing the time for in this case the cutoff to open up from 0 to whatever? Isn’t it logical that it then first dips and then moves up again? In any case there hasn’t been much outcry over this across the years, no offense Gentleclockdivider, but why is this a big deal for you?
It seems to be a viable (or at least close to viable) workaround to add a short hold stage to the ahdsr to bring the peak value back up to unity, although this of course depends on the specific result aiming to be achieved.
My renders are showing very similar envelope characteristics between them with a short hold stage (in my case ~12ms) added to the ahdsr, except that the max value is now reached with the hold stage added.
Whether this is adequate to the task (and an acceptable workaround) depends on the specific sound attempting to be synthesized, of course
Sometimes milliseconds make all the difference 
My NON issue was a response to ffx who thought it was only a graphical anomaly
If it would only be graphical , then I would consider it a non issue .(but it’s not )
In any case, it seems like by manipulating attack, hold, and decay in conjunction with each other, full filter values can be reached with desired envelope shape - including short attack values. At least on my end it seems that way 
Seems like the decay time may need to be shortened to compensate for the added hold time, but I haven’t tested it systematically.
For me, at least, this will be a new workaround method
Guys , it doesn’matter if it’s applied to the filter, the amp or a ringmod’s frequency , it’s the output range of the envelope that matters ( and the influence of the attack phase on that global output amount )
Also , if it’s the regular envelope or the adsr , all evelopes exhibit the same behaviour becasue they are bacically the same , the ahdsr is just the regular envelope with some template controls under the hood .
They are only capable of an instant attack at the verry beginning , once multiple attack stages are introduced there is interpolation applied ( which taktik has explained )
Simple test , draw a dc samlpe in the audio editor of 336 samples ( value +1 ) , draw in some shapes in the envelope and render , the render will be the shape of the envelopes ( envelope * audio dc waveform )
Either way , taktik has made it clear that no changes are coming soon , so I just stop beating the dead horse
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