Beat Editor

Ideas & suggestions
1

I’ve been using Renoise for years now to make Hip-Hop and R&B beats. I have then been submitting them to Tightbeatz.com to get them rated. However the thing that struck me on this site is how very few (if any) beatmakers have heard of Renoise, which is frustrating cuz I think it’s one of the best pieces of music software out there.

The problem seems to be, a lot of the people who make beats find Renoise too complicated (though compared to something like Reason it’s surely nothing?!?) but anyway…

How about some kind of “beat editor” incorporated into Renoise, in the style of Fruityloops/ACID/Ejay etc so that inexperienced users can easily create beats and put them into their own songs.

For example I mean some kind of “4 beats in a bar” thing where by the user could click on a position to place the kick/snare/hi-hat etc. This could all be arranged together to form a beat, which could then be incorporated into any song in progress.

I’m sure this would increase Renoise’s popularity. What do ppl think?

:blink:

2

I would add that if ReNoise would need a feature like that to be popular, then it’s better we just skip with ReNoise and go using some other “beat friendly” sequencer.

In a tracker you have a lot more possibilities than any other sequencing program, so why should a tracker be limited in usage to be similar to less powerful softwares?

Make something really different with ReNoise, go to that site and tell them:
“Now try to do this with your program”.

This would definitely make ReNoise popular (on that site).

3

I’m with It-Alien and Bantai here. Renoise is a tracker and let it stay this way.

Some newbies will use the feature you proposed, than they will maybe leave it, so it will only bring confusion and another not useful fill on the screen. Notice that it’s already hard to place a single button there. Imagine some beatbox…

Piano-roll, beatmaker… damn those things. Renoise is not a program like most other apps. It’s a tracker, it’s not made for massess, but rather for those post-scene passionates, or people who are pissed off by… piano-roll and beatbox and decided to try something different (like me :P ).

4

OK, well to tell the truth I totally agree with what you guys are saying. It’s just the frustrating thing for me is that I am able to make some amazing stuff with ReNoise, but whenever anyone asks “what set-up are you using?” they are absolutely amazed and confused when I tell them.

In the music industry these days the following programs are the most widely recognized: Reason, Cubase, Fruityloops, ACID. Yet the bizarre thing is what you can achieve quickly with ReNoise can often involve a far longer process (or a lot more money) with the other programs. Plus I find ReNoise a whole lot more fun.

I’m not the richest guy in the world, so my ‘set-up’ consists of an old Yamaha keyboard, a PC, and ReNoise. That’s it. Yet, it works fine for me! I can produce CD-quality tracks regularly without the need for samplers, sequencers, mixers, microphones, etc etc.

I think you are right that its probably a good idea not to include the ‘beat editor’ or whatever, but basically the reason I came up with that idea is that I want to see ReNoise get the credit and recognition it truly deserves, because at the moment it seems to be almost unheard of amongst Hip-Hop/R&B producers/Major record labels and producers.

5

I think here that what would be useful for the point of encouraging new users is probably more demo songs in different styles. A good thing to encourage people who want an example straight away might be to have a default song load with renoise (with option to disable this) which will play as soon as you boot renoise up.

The thing about a tracker due to everything being right in front of you is that once you look at it playing, it is fairly obvious how the basic principle works (remembering here back to my first view of OctaMED on the amiga B) although that was quite a long time ago now :D And actually the track based volume meters helped speed this up to under seconds but I`m not looking to open that debate here :) just a point I thought of now).

With the release of 1.5 it looks as though the interface will seem sleeker, less daunting and less cluttered to the new user. All I think allowing the basic principle being shown more apparant.

As Chris has said

And in my opinion the ease of use already for making beats and composition in general is the reason for this. This is why I feel that a simpler extra interface that would become limited very quickly would not necessarily be worth having. New sampler and loop control features which have been discussed recently I think would be more constuctive for the development of renoise, and may help attract the users you have mentioned also.

Agree this is a great way to show the power of renoise.

Also I dont know what the future plan is for www.jabbanoising.com is but if it were possible I think this would be a great place for users to post sample rnss for newbies (and even not so newbies) to learn from.

On a final point (I think this issue of making renoise as available to new users is important for it`s future) It has been great to see some of the users here writing reviews for renoise whether on the net or in magazines for renoise. This I think is a great way to help renoise and its future, Noticed on http://www.kvr-vst.com/ some renoise reviews are needed, was planning to wait for 1.5 to put one myself and to reach the required 10 posts on their forum to review :Blushing: :P

Already put in a review a while ago here.
http://www.futureproducers.com/userreviews…s.php/model/423

Seems the lack of an edit feature meant that the soul of the renoise interface was lost in reproduction but i think I got my main points across (even if a little optomistic for 1.3 :) and my views on mastering slowly changing now!)
Hopefully someone who will appreciate renoise may have been steered over here by it anyway.

Phew! can stop now think I got my points all down :)

Edit: above post posted in the meantime of me writing some of this but left as is.
Edit 2: gram error

6

So? That makes you l33t, and them n00bs ;)

Seriously, I’m with the Bantai & DD as well :)

Why not convert the common man instead of make Renoise a common product… Dazzle them with your beats and point in the direction of www.renoise.com ! :yeah:

7

Hey guys,

Maybe i’m missing the point, but basically a tracker layout is pretty much like a horizontal beat editor(flstudio, orion drum machne) but just oriented vertically instead!

What i’m saying, is that with the help of a friend, some one could get competent with Renoise as easily as with other hosts.

And i am 100% against adding newbie features. There are many hosts that seem to fall into the trap of trying to add every single feature. All this means is that every host moves closer to all being the same generic program.

All the programs have their diffferent approach, and this variety is a good thing, lets keep it that way :D

8

This all boils down to effective marketing and funding imo…
and another thing: “I feel cool and hip when I use these apps cause all my idols use these programs…”
(anyway I think that’s how a lot of people work…)
also, all major musicmags are littered with ads, reviews and masterclasses about these programs… (well, marketing…)

as we all know the dev-team hasn’t got the funds like the big corporations and hence no advanced marketing can be done…
In that regard we, the userbase, are very important and need to help out by always promoting Renoise in any way possible…
What’s made in favour of Renoise and the dev-team is also good for us. Promote!

We KNOW that Renoise is the most wicked app out there…
What’s left is for us to let the world know!
:D :yeah:

A:R

9

come on, acid and fruity loops are not even real musicprograms. I spit on people who use them. I really do. And I hate rebirth and Ableton Live too. those programs are like … well, like the lights for pavlov’s dog. “oh something is blinking here, lets click it. nice, it makes sounds !”. they are not one millimeter away from magix musicmaker and the such.

10

I’m sorry, but thats a really shitty attitude, and the kind of thing that stops people getting into mmaking music in the first place, cos they’re scared of getting mocked by so-called “experts” like you. If people were a bit more understanding that we all have our own personal preference about what we like, there wouldn’t be so many pointless arguments.

There is nothing wrong with FLStudio, or Acid, or any other music program. Its just what you like to use or not use. FLStudio has about 20 times more features than renoise. I personally prefer renoise, but that doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with the others because i don’t want to use them.

I hope you don’t think you’re clever because you believe that these other programs aren’t “real” music programs. I’d love to hear what your crappy definiton of a real music program is. Considering that most of them do exactly what renoise does, just in a slightly different way.

I was really hoping this wouldn’t be another forum full of childish purist bullshit. I hope someone proves that this isn’t the case.

11

i agree.

looza: you’re a poopy-head.

hasn’t the motto of the be-patient-for-the-next-release party been, “it’s not the software you use, it’s what you do with it.”

renoise is the only program i use for making music and i think ableton live is a wicked program. one of my bandmates uses it live and can do some wicked shit with it (i’ve turned him on to renoise, soon he will turn to the dark side. mwahaha). i’ve also done some cool stuff with fruity loops when i played with it briefly during version 3.4. it’s got a dsp engine that works a whole lot like your standard tracker it’s just got a step sequencer interface that looks like a drum machine instead of one that scrolls vertically, and a name that isn’t as hip as renoise.

just out of curiosity. at what point does music software become “real”?

12

Yeah, I know that I am rather radical at this, but thats my point that grew over the years.
there are a few things that make me seperate between “real” music and “fake” music and that is directly connected to the programs.

(now the next part might be a little bit cluttered but I dont care).

I think when the effort and creativity someone puts into his music reaches a certain point he becomes “real” for me.
now, musicmaker and acid and also ableton live if used with acid loops or the like are not real musicprograms. There you have those gigantic blocks of prerecorded wav-files and you put them together without ever doing anything than the musical equivalent of “painting by numbers”. All you do is puzzling a 35-piece puzzle together, and thats not making music, thats something below. all those blocks fit neatly together, and you cant make much wrong. And thats the point, there is no work required there and you simply can’t fail if you have two intact braincells and know how to operate a mouse.
I want to see people putting effort in their music, and I dont care if its an intense 2 hour flight for a new track or a slow 3-month crawl. I want music that is more than the simple sum of its ingredients, I want to see something happening with the samples and the notes and the small parts, and I dont think you can achieve this with musicmaker, acid, fruity loops, because those programs simply force you on a nice and easy path and do not allow experiments, you simply cant do anything wrong there. I want to hear that people took their time to find those right chords, to dig in their vinyl-collection for that particular sample, to chop up and rearrange a loop so it fits the music and not just plays along.
I cant take music and musicprograms seriously which either do not require some creative effort or do have some huge safety-nets. I dont take programs seriously which wont allow the user to leave the brightly lit path or who push him in some direction. I dont like programs which produce some generic output and I really dont like people who use these programs to create such generic stuff and then call themselves “musicians”.

actually there are so much pictures for what I mean. like, whats “cooking” ? Is someone who goes to a take-away, buys some chinese food and then at home spices it up with some ketchup and pepper cooking ? I think not. Is someone who does buy some instant-food which requires hot water and something like “cook this for 5 minutes, then pour that one in and cook for another 3 minutes” cooking ? Nope. Is someone who buys a frozen pizza and drops some salami and extra cheese on it before he puts it in the oven cooking ? Think not. Someone who buys several ingredients and puts them together to a meal after working in the kitchen for some time does cook.

or something else : are you impressed by someone who is balancing on a 1 meter high rope which a safetynet under it ? I am not. I am impressed by
someone who does either balance at 1meter without a safety net if he is not long in the balancing business or if he does balance at 10 meters with a safety net. And what do you call someone who does balance at 1 meter with a safety net, records it on video and then goes home and edits the video so it looks like he is balancing at 10 meters without a safety net ?

To clear things up : I am not against safety nets in programs, and I am not one of those who think that ft2 is cooler because it was harder to do music with. I love renoise because its easy to work with, or to say it in a different way, because it supports my creativity. It does not make my creativity obsolete or fakes it, it just supports it. Its like those nifty little chord-helper tools, I like them, because they help you to add chords to your song, but you still have to find those chords first. You cant simply click two buttons and have a great chord-progression, and if you can you have some generic output that either needs to be contradicted with the rest of the song by putting work in it or you should be ashamed of yourself. Thats the opposite to Acid or musicmaker, where every combinable sample is in the same chord, where you simply cant do anything wrong.

well, I stop here with my rant of the month, if you wish please discuss this further with me.

13

Hey you know what Looza I couldn’t agree with you more. I find it incredibly frustrating that the “paint-by-numbers” programs like ACID, Musicmaker etc are so widely praised and considered great music programs. I think the sad fact that they are so popular is because there are a lot of amateur (or crap?) musicians out there who need a way of making music without actually taking much time/effort/skill to do it.

It reminds me of a time a little while ago when I was round a friend’s house, and, beaming with pride, he showed me what he had “created” using Dance EJay or something on the PS2. As you quite rightly say, whatever random order you put the sample blocks in, even the worlds biggest retard couldn’t fail to make some kind of piece of music. I find it outrageous.

[QUOTE]In that regard we, the userbase, are very important and need to help out by always promoting Renoise in any way possible…
What’s made in favour of Renoise and the dev-team is also good for us. Promote!

Yeah gotta agree here too… Well I’ve been trying to give Renoise a good name on Tightbeatz.com, but so far the only response has been from newbies who find the whole thing (you know, making music) way too complicated and would rather have a program that does it all for them. Hence why I started this topic.

PS I gotta say - man you guys are quick at responding on these forums! I’ve barely had a chance to get my breath here! :)

14

Well, I agree with you looza but…

I’ve used Acid a coupple of times and I think it’s a great program. I’ve used it to record vocals and guitar and then combine it with bass and drums sequenced in renoise. I’m a lousy singer and a terible guitar player so I will ofcourse never share this with the rest of the world but still, Acid is very convenient when it comes to those kind of things.

I too hate fruityloops but not because I think it’s fake but because I think it’s awful to work with. I’ve heard some pretty amazing stuff made with fruityloops so I guess it has it must appeal to some people. AE’s megaman 2 mixes are made with fruityloops and they’re all awesome.

I guess you could probably use Musicmaker and E-Jay in more creative ways but I doubt there are people using tose programs for anything besides combining the included loops. Add to that the stupid E-Jay comercial where the cop stops the car with the “cool” kids just to ask “what’s this music?” and one of the guys responds “I made it” and then they all dance and its stupid and … aaargh… spit blaaa… I hate it I hate it I hate it. Yeah I guess I would call those applications and everything they stand for fake!

…no experience with Ableton Live so I don’t know about that.

15

I hate dissapoint some of you, but you abviously haven’t used these programs you criticise as “paint by numbers” or whatever.

Fruityloops is nothing like that at all, its a legitimate sequencer like any other, it has a fully-spec’d piano roll editor, sample editing, midi controller automation and editing, built-in high quality FX and synths. All the stuff that many many sequencers have.

I don’t know where you even got the idea to compare it to Acid, they are 2 ENTIRELY different programs, there is barely a similarity between them.

All this condescending bullshit about “my music is real because i use program X” is total crap.

There was a thread over at KVR that summed it up nicely for me. Some moron thought that he would make music like the prodigy because he used Reason, and thats what liam howlett used for majority of the last album. What a twat.

It dosn’t work like that. The way it works is the the person is what makes the music, not the tools. It doesn’t matter what music program you use, all of them have their good and bad points.

I just can’t believe how massively innacurately looza has described some of these music apps, its actually quite comical how wrong you can be. Fruityloops allows some of the finest and most precise editing of your music and parameters of any program.

And one more thing, renoise will NEVER be as accurate in editing as some of these other programs while it remains tick-based. I love trackers, but this tick-based system has its inherent problems.

Looza - i don’t dislike you mate, i just think you need to be a bit more broad-minded. We all love our different way of doing things, so there’s no need to criticise others just because they do things differently :)

16

Sounds to me that you guys do pretty much agree on most things. You where just mixing ‘fake’ music/artists with ‘fake’ music programs.
You can still make fantastic music with a stone-Age 4-track tape recorder.

17

even with loop based software, nobody sais that you cannot make the loops yourself and then rearrange in that app.
the kids who just use the pre-made loops from cd will never be able to make anything halfway good this way and won’t get recognized for their music anywyys (exept maybe by dancing cops).

on the other hand, i think the reason for the wide acceptance for out-of-the-box-music softwar is the needs in the world of proffesional music. well, i’m just a (bad) hobbyist, so it’s just speculation, but i guess when you get a job to create some music for let’s say a stupid minisalami commercial or whatever, there is no need for creativity or orginalism. you just want to get it done as fast as possible, time is money after all. and you don’t want to put real love and original ideas into it.

18

i think there ARE “real” musicians and then there are hacks.

one of my favourite instruments is a CASIO SK1 sampling keyboard. it’s essentially a toy from the 80’s. i don’t know if it’s a “real” instrument, but i know i make “real” music with it. i don’t think you can asess the legitimacy of any music program that you haven’t explored every nuance and possibility of.

all you can do is determine the validity of the product that you hear. and even then, all you have is an opinion. everyone’s got one of those, and any one isn’t any more “real” than another.

19

If you think there’s no talent involved in arranging loops, I doubt you have enough respect for arrangement. In dance music, good arrangement can be just as challenging and take just as much talent as sequencing atoms, IMO. I agree with you that sequencing atoms and arranging is more worthy of praise and requires more talent and effort than doing just one or the other, though.

20

have to agree, making a good arrangement is quite an art. i know that because i suck at arranging in sequencer :)
i have a good feel for songstructre when playing on guitar, but programming in sequencer is a different story for me :-/