Brainstorming: Arranger

Ideas & suggestions
422

I don’t want to discourage you developers, you did great work by building Renoise,
but to be honest I’m a bit dissapointed about the new arranger / maxtrix view.

So far it obviously that it doesn’t add more value than copy&paste and muting (?)
Don’t understand me wrong: this is of course valueable, but I really wished
for better support for global automations and such stuff, or things like easy global looping of
single track content (without need of copying into specific patterns = virtual track content - a bit like in Cubase).

I’ve read about martinals idea of different clips with different content like automations, commands and so on.
Haven’t read the huge rest of the thread, but would have liked to see more of these ideas implemented.

Moreover, I think it’s a kind of design “imbalance” to have a global view which shows one the one hand tiny pattern notes,
but ony the other hand doesn’t display automation envelopes.

Please add a global editor/viewer for automations !

423

Yes, but no one ever claimed that its replacing an “arranger”. Does that make the pattern matrix useless?

424

oh I really haven’t claimed it’s useless - but I’ve expected a different flavor and wanted to give some honest feedback.
Since the new matrix view is so heavily advertized on Renoise’s Top level page my expectations were just high.
And indeed I thought that the matrix view and arranger were the same thing. Good to know there’ll be coming more :-).

425

in fact, if i understand well, i think logic do it… create an object (draw), than apply automation to object, than you can cut, paste, repeat etc this object… and after that, you can ungroup the object and delete it so you have all your automations visible again after this…

but i hate pianorolls :) go for it!!! it’s gonna be a really powerfull stuff

426

i hope this is write place to say my idea) Maybe someone told it yet i dont not. it’s too many text here)
So, i worked with Renoise like 2-3 years. this is awesome program blahblah. but what i want to say it has like few minuses which i see.

The main thing is sample playback in sequencer.
Like the problem is: I have 2 patterns and sample starts in 1st. and i press start in 2nd pattern (sample should b played but it doesn’t. i don’t here anything).
I know, this is kinda one of idea of trackers maybe. but, just imagine, if u work with samples which are like 20-30 patterns long. so, to listen the sample in 15th pattern u HAVE TO go back EACH TIME to pattern where sample starts and then wait 'til it reach 15th pattern. that sucks. cuz if u always work with such samples it peaces u off.

and the solutions i see could be different)
like (from simple change to a bit more harder)

  1. u can make a mode in which u can listen such samples (as for me and i think many musicians - i use each pattern only one time. so, i mean if u r gonna do this u should think 'bout different situations blahblah)
  2. the thing that could b just awesome is graphical preview of samples in sequencer. Maybe it sounds stupid. Like it’s a tracker man. But this is the best tracker. And many people really need this. 4 example this was the main reason why i switch Renoise to another DAW. only cuz of graphical preview of a sample.
    U see, when u work in tracker u feel like u r blind. like in horizontal sequencers u can see loud part of sample and quiet parts, lows n highs. just cuz u see a sample man. i think u know. but here u r just listening, waiting, and catch moments by ear. u losing so much time on it. really.
    anyway it could b just help mode
  3. the best thing. Like as i heard from many people who uses Renoise.
    Imitation of horizontal sequencer or change in existing. the main idea again in ability to see samples (and change em) in sequencer. like now it’s 2 different window (F1 n F4 ololo) like sample edit n the sequencer. but if it 'd b something like vertical interface of Ableton (Logic,Cubase…). that 'd b amazing.
    N like it’s how i n some people i know see the next step in trackers.

What do u think about it?)

427

Mr Horse: Please read the thread in Audio Tracks.

428

Yeah yeah, they are damn right!

429

So even with version 2.6, we still don’t have anything as useful or important as this:

The minute Renoise gets a sequence editor like Buzz has, I will leave Buzz and start using Renoise.

430

LOL!

Yeah, silly Renoise.

^^

431

Did you ever tried Aodix?
http://www.aodix.com/pageaodixv4.html
I’m just curious what Buzz users think of this type of sequencer…

432

they get reminded of a huge loss to the scene.

sorry, i had to.

such a great idea/seq.

433

Yes, I tried Aodix. How is that remotely relevant to this thread?

The Buzz Sequence Editor is the only way the Renoise pattern arranger should be done. BSE works, brilliantly, quickly, intuitively. I presume the Renoise pattern arranger does not allow you to create songs in the same way as the BSE. Why would anybody try to arrange a song in a different way than the Buzz way?
Read some of my earlier posts in this thread to see why it’s the best way to write a song. I gave up using Renoise years ago, only because of the lack of a sequence editor like Buzz’s, and went back to using Buzz.

434

well people lets just have some patience,and see what the team will come up with,im sure they got something cooking(not for 2,6)but still

and stop arguing,that wont get you guys a arranger faster

btw those renoise mockups(not the shitty buzz ones)are pure art :yeah:

:walkman:

435

s-n-s - never heard of the expression “The triumph of form over function”?
What the Renoise mockups look like doesn’t help you when you’re trying to write a song. I can’t believe that people are still putting up with this ridiculous method of song editing. I don’t use Buzz because it looks good, I use it because it’s the easiest way for me to write my music. Go back through this thread a few pages where I explain exactly why the Buzz Sequence Editor is so important and incredibly useful, and where I explain why I can’t understand how non-Buzz tracker users can write music without going mad at having to copy and paste whole columns of data from one pattern to the next, it’s just madness. Oskari got it right first time, as far as I know there is no better way of doing it than the Buzz Sequence Editor, and it should be REALLY easy to implement in Renoise, much easier than lots of the other stuff that has been done so far.

Edit: I see that you can actually copy from one pattern to another, but you have to use the mouse (please correct me if I’m wrong), and therefore it is a right pain in the ass. Why can’t you just enter ‘1’, ‘2’, ‘3’ etc.? Why make it more difficult than it has to be?

I’d love to watch a Youtube video of a Renoise composer writing a song, and see how they copy a drum track from pattern 40 to patterns 1-8, listen to it, and then change their minds and decide they want to put the drum track from pattern 48 into patterns 1-8. In Buzz this takes about a second to do. In every tracker, it is a nightmare. In Buzz, you can SEE clearly which drum pattern is where, in every other tracker, you can’t.

436

Okay, I’ve just downloaded 2.5.1 and had a play with it. The Pattern Matrix has basically ignored what WORKS with the Buzz Sequence Editor (and which massively increases your workflow by allowing keyboard use instead of mouse use), and put in a load of unnecessary stuff (such as the ability to change the colour and size of the pattern blocks…)

So you have a series of practically useless ‘graphical representations’ of each track, and they’re useless because you could have ten drum tracks which look the same in the Pattern Matrix, but which have small differences in them, which you can easily hear in the song, but can’t SEE in the Pattern matrix.

You can’t just enter a number for the pattern that you want to use. You can’t give the patterns a name so you can view them that way, which would be much more meaningful than a series of coloured blocks. And so you can’t just press ‘1’ to insert pattern ‘1’ wherever you want it, as many times as you want. (Please correct me if I’m wrong, I’ve only been playing with it for ten minutes.)

So the two massive advantages that Buzz’s Sequence Editor offers over all other trackers, have been totally ignored, and instead we have a half baked job which doesn’t actually help the composer very much.

In Buzz I can call my individual sequences whatever I want - 01 could be “Start”, 02 could be “Verse1”, etc. and I can just press ‘1’ or ‘2’ and place these sequences wherever I want in the Sequence Editor, using the keyboard alone, no need to muck about with the mouse. Because of this, I can SEE the structure of my song instantly, and unequivocally. I know that “Start” is at the start, because it says so - I don’t need to look at a tiny, shrunk down approximation of the pattern and try to work out which sequence it is.

I just don’t understand how you Renoise users can write songs with this massive handicap imposed on you all the time, it’s just ludicrous. How long has Buzz been in existence? 10 years, or something like that?

Why didn’t the Renoise team just use random representations of flowers, or something equally useless and obscure, instead of the shrunk down view of the pattern? I mean, how could anybody actually design this, and then spend their time working on it, and NOT see that it’s not the best way of doing things? Don’t any of the people who work on Renoise ever look at Buzz?

So as it stands, I still can’t use Renoise, I wouldn’t even attempt it.

437

Yes. You’re wrong. You don’t need to use the mouse. What I can read out from you posts is that you’re just overseeing a bunch of features.
And what’s up with all that flaming? What are you hoping to achieve with it? Just tell us honestly…

438

What “flaming”?

Which features have I missed, I’ve only used the new build for half an hour. Can I do the same things as I can in Buzz’s Sequence Editor or not?

439

Renoise will never be Buzz and vice versa. If you unhappy with the way build tracks in renoise you can make a suggestion, live with what renoise is able or just pick another software.

You will definitely not able to download a buzz-clone today and you must wait for what is the devs coming up in the future as all the other users. Take it easy. ^_^

440

I don’t use Buzz because

  1. Doesn’t run on OSX
  2. I am happy with Renoise

#2 also explains why I don’t troll the Buzz forums.

I have to ask, are you happy with Buzz? It seems to me you are looking for a way out, and Renoise is somehow to blame.

441

XG2003,

I haven’t used Buzz (no OSX) but the clips idea is great. However, there is another pinned thread in this very forum for that. If you must, troll there, but no one will like it.