@Skornsteen: there’s no need for you to be a “fan of this idea”, because the previous behaviour should be preserved.
The arranger is suggested to become an additional view/pane.
If you don’t like to use the arranger you are not forced to do so.
Ok, then I think it’s fine 
I still don’t have the 50 posts but I would love this feat anyway 
50 posts minimum to be taken seriously? 
Maybe it’s more meaningful that even my first post (unless I forgot I posted before on this board) is about really, greedily, wanting an arranger in Renoise. 
While a noob is far from what I am. In the last roundabout 20 years I used all sorts of different music software, mostly trackers for composing. When Buzz entered the stage, this was some kind of a revolution. Once I understood the way it works, I very quickly got used to its 2d arranger. I got that used to it, I can barely stand working with trackers implementing the old school style of 1d pattern sequence. On C64 or Amiga, were you usually only have 3 or 4 tracks anyway, 1d was no big deal. But tracking songs as complicated as they get with all the possibilities today, 1d feels annoying as hell.
Before anyone replies “Hey Buzz fanboy, then just stay with Buzz, dammit!” - I’d really like to continue using Buzz, but it has its own annoying quirks. Main annoyance is Buzz has its own obscurity issues: You can’t see pattern contents alongside each other. Buzé has some good attempts to overcome that, but still lacks in other areas. Pain. Don’t wanna go into that further, this is no Buzz board.
I bought Renoise because it seemed an app which makes tracking fun again. And it really shines for the most part. But anytime I try to develop a song in it, I hit the pattern sequence obscurity wall very early. Building up songs in Buzz is so wonderfully quick and easy, Renoise really needs to mimick that. It’s a huge creativity booster. Full ack to everything XM2003 said about this here recently. I put all my voting power into this feature request.
Well. Since there seems to be some Renoise arranger already in development, I hope it gets as close to the Buzz way as possible (where Renoise tracks correspond to Buzz machines obviously, as suggested before), with keys bound to clips for quick’n’easy entering, loop region setup, navigation, inserting, deleting and so on. I’d find it nice to have it as an alternative pane to the current pattern sequencer, left to the pattern view, with a draggable divider.
Can the developers tell something about which kind of implementation we have to expect? Appreciated & thx in advance.
Renoise + Buzz arranger being the promised land hopefully doesn’t mean we have to walk through the desert for 40 years. 
If you look at the date of the original arranger concept topic on this forum, you will discover that topic is an aging topic, still everything is only on the drawing board, the best images done by Pysj are even publicly visible here in the ideas and suggestions forum.
Your problem with Buzz in general about not being able to see the overview in relationship between tracks is right one of the many issues to overcome while still offering a good working concept and has a quick workflow.
One example is: what if the arranger is setup vertically, how do we place track-names above it?, what do we do with audio tracks if those get implemented? should we then also twist the automation 90 degrees clockwise to blend in the pattern editor?
Various other ideas and suggestions that do not directly relate to this arranger are being considered as well but they all have to blend in perfectly as well, this is why it takes a lot of time to decide what new feature will be added and how to prevent a design conflict with another most wanted future feature.
what a bout a hexagonal grid like blockbusters you right click /create cell
kinda like this
now as you can see there is a time cycle flashing this could indicate the pattern length. you could also label the cell and add a hexadecimal counter contained within the center of the sort of top diamond view
you could create as many cells as you like the idea is to link the cells. the beauty of this is you can chain them in any visual way you lk . you can do it horizontally, vertically or in NE other pattern you so wish.
every time you create a new cell within the grid you could create a new tracker, and also a new mixer channel in the PA view. so essentially cells all get bussed to one grouped single output but also contain the mixer channels within the tracker level of the program.
new cells could be able to contain previously used sounds from other cells or new samples. thiscould be done by having a cell sample viewer as a new option in the already existing sample viewer.
you could copy and paste cells and rearrange the contents if you so wish. all cloned cells could have a separate out on the mixer in the PA view. so id propose the the ability to lock cells.if you change ne automation within those cells or other data, the whole locked group will change along with it and buss to the same output in the PA mixer.
the ability to group cells which means all cells combine the time line then travels around the greatest perimeter of all combined cells and all channels subtract to one output in the PA mixer view.
the idea is people use patterns to make music u built up sounds in a sampler track them out into a pattern then maybe you want to fill up another sampler to create another groove for the track. rather than have lots of groves in the same sampler as it gets messy and disorganized quickly you have lots of separate samplers and trackers working together keeping things nice and organized.
its just an idea i thought it was different. im a big fan of re-noise im not saying this is a good idea just a mad crazy way different way to sequence idea.
respect
I totally agree. I don’t understand how anybody can actually track in anything other than Buzz - I love Renoise but can’t use it, because it hasn’t got Buzz’s Sequence Editor. I can’t work out how people can write songs in Renoise, when it’s so difficult to change things.
Use the latest version of Buzz - then use Pattern XP. Press the ‘Columns’ button, or Ctrl+Backspace, and tick the generators you want to view, voila!
Thank you. I run into the same brickwall with any other tracker than Buzz - too much time is spent copying and pasting, you can’t see what pattern you have where, etc. Buzz’s Sequence Editor is just so much easier, I can fill out a track with drum patterns in literally a few seconds, then swap patterns at will, only takes a second. Try doing that in a conventional tracker and it just ruins the song writing process.
I agree. I can’t see how a basic version of the Buzz Sequence Editor can’t be pretty easy to program - it is only a simpler representation of the data that is already visible in the pattern editor in Renoise.
For now I will stick with Buzz and the wonderful Polac VST!
Well, Pattern XP… I was excited when I first heard about it, seemed like a brillant feature addition, but sigh …
Unfortunately this is a feature which has been implemented in a completely wrong way. Already the extra window with a checkbox tree is awkward, there should have been up/down arrows in the top row showing the machine names and (just as in Renoise) plus/minus buttons to display/hide parameter columns. But the main flaw is that it doesn’t show the contents of other machine’s own patterns at the current song position, as one would expect (like it can be arranged in Buzé), but instead it offers to combine multiple machines in one pattern. May seem not that different on first sight. But then these patterns have exactly the structure we want to get rid of in Renoise. In sequencer view the information which machines occur in a particular pattern is obscured. Using this feature makes things even worse than in Renoise, because several patterns playing alongside each other can have access to the same machine, and the notes coming from different patterns at the same time will cancel their competitors out or cut each other off. As the setup which machines are used can even change in every single pattern, this whole concept has a tremendous potential for confusion.
It just contradicts the original song structure model of Buzz, which we mentioned here again and again being the one to go after for Renoise. It’s a pity. The way it actually should have been done is to offer a zoomed-in sequence view, where the actual content of each pattern is visible (as suggested in “Zoomable pattern editor” thread here). This would also show what happens beyond pattern borders, a very nice touch in Renoise.
right. in general, there are two different camps.
one part is just waiting for any arranger-like feature and the others knowing how it should be implemented.
…and i agree a bit.
It doesn’t have to have all the features at once. For me and I expect most people that its not a very big deal if its horizontal or vertical. There will allways be someone say that it should have been the oposite.
Let the “what is most easy to implement” decide.
I rather have a basic arranger in a year then a masterpiece of arranger in 5 years.
The arranger should imo be a separate part from the pattern arranger. You specify clip in the pattern/track arranger and arrange them in the song arranger.
This way the pattern area becomes like a pool of clips where you can test out ideas.
Once in the song arranger when you doubleclick a clip you get to edit it.
Yeahm okay, now imagine the most easiest thing is being implemented and after a year Taktik wants to expand to something to a complete higher level which requires a complete different approach and enforces a rewrite of big parts of the engine? Not only the pain of evolving all this, but also the stress during the beta time… large engine reconstructions take painfully long beta periods. 1.5 was one of them. There always is more at stake than just implementing a working solution. Not thinking forward is an act of lazyness or recklessness.
You really underestimate me 
When I said the most easy to implement I meant in the long term…
Still it does not mean its an easy task…
Fortunately for the both of us:we are not the programmers who have to create this Unfortunately:We also don’t decide if and how and when 
The thing is no matter what route is taken it’s an arranger in a tracker
I don’t think there is a solution that striaght off the bat will please everyone
At the same time i personally have to look at all the other features in Renoise
Some of them i looked at when they arrived and thought why the hell is that like that
Over time you realise that a bunch of thought has gone into it and it very much fits the paradigm of the entire app as a whole
So now for me it is just a case of when it comes see how it is and just get used to it because it has been thought through
Bungle
sorry for the off-topic.
this is an interesting question, Bantai. Personally, I’ve only used Rewire for a one-time live project to use Plogue Bidule together with Renoise, but I use everything else very often.
however, there are lot of people who merely know the basics of Renoise but still produce lot of music with it. I think it is a matter of what are your aims in music production, and how much careful you are of the details in your songs. Also, it is of course a matter of style of production, but still it annoys me a lot when I see people still asking how they can achieve 600BPM’s in Renoise when we have worked so hard to implement the LPB system.
In my opinion, the key is on our side: we should add to the installation pack a good number of easy tutorials which show the abilities of the new features.
I disagree. Well to an extent. Standard installer should just be the basic program plus the tutorial songs and few basic samples and instruments. Could be a streamlined installer with nothing but the program and then a expanded installer with all the backstage content (only for register version of course) plus tutorial videos etc. Don’t know if this would put too much extra load on the server but hopefully if it was different versions available then people would chose the correct one and it would be better than having a single, bloated download.
Put a choice of three download for the Demo version just seems weird!
with “easy tutorials” I meant “easy tutorial songs”, sorry. I have made some new tutorial songs for the new version, but not all of them were actually easy so some have not been added
Ahh I see, sorry. As we already have tutorial songs and I had just been reading the other thread talking about videos and stuff I got confused.
Anyway we have gone far off topic for this thread (in fact it would fit better in the “I Am A Total N00b…” thread) we should probably try and get back on track.
So we seeing any movement towards an arranger for the next release
The thing you have to remember here and i think vV gets this idea
Renoise to me isn’t my host, it is just a really good addon to my host via Rewire
So while people who use Renoise as their main host may not use Rewire much
People who have bought it as an add on sure will
Rewie is the feature is use most in Renoise i would probably say
There is no way at this point for me to even consider making an entire song in Renoise (i do a bunch of live recording)
But it is still a very awesome sampler to me so things like Rewire and arrangers and such to me are my go to features
Perhaps i am out of the ordinary i don’t know but i notice a lot of the features people love around here i simply don’t use very much
Bungle