It surely is about making some money for a dog’s living. Tracker isn’t obviously too attractive for average joe, just like excel (excel has no alternative simply). Not everybody is a good salesman, too. Only the information politics from the dev team sucks, IMHO.
Well, I am quite happy since I now know, what is not happening. Post trauma phase now.
It surely is about making some money for a dog’s living. Tracker isn’t obviously too attractive for average joe, just like excel (excel has no alternative simply). Not everybody is a good salesman, too. Only the information politics from the dev team sucks, IMHO.
Well, I am quite happy since I now know, what is not happening. Post trauma phase now.
Well, it easily could’ve been much better. I had this vision for years: Renoise would become a “cream of the crop” modern creative DAW. But I’m not convinced anymore. It feels like something really has stopped.
Last days I demoed Bitwig (again). And meanwhile it’s really great and mature. Lot’s of features implemented which I still miss in Renoise. E.g. great GUI scaling, wav tracks, sidechaining, multimonitor support, simplicity of the workflow, great native fx and so on. Two years ago Renoise users laughed about it. Now, it definitely has passed Renoise. It also provides scripting. Probably I’ll give it a chance. It’s not easy, though, because I grew up with trackers.
[Bitwig] It also provides scripting. Probably I’ll give it a chance. It’s not easy, though, because I grew up with trackers.
I’m on Bitwig for almost one year now. I’ll definitely recommend to give it a try. But when it comes to scripting: I see Bitwig scripting for controllers, but that’s all there is. There’s no scripting like Renoise’s or Reaper’s tools, or is there? If so, I didn’t notice…
I’m on Bitwig for almost one year now. I’ll definitely recommend to give it a try. But when it comes to scripting: I see Bitwig scripting for controllers, but that’s all there is. There’s no scripting like Renoise’s or Reaper’s tools, or is there? If so, I didn’t notice…
Thanks for feedback, well, scripting for controllers would be most important for me ^^.
Heh. I’ve spent the last year with Bitwig and failed to finish a song in it. It’s too good, in a way - the nested devices and so forth, there’s just too much to play with. Also very touchy.
I got a lot more done with Renoise, in spite of its sometimes infuriating (and sometimes inspiring) limitations. There’s simply no comparing the two in terms of stability.
I’m not using Renoise much at the moment, but I did write a whole album using it, and I’m very glad it exists. Given how awesomely stable I’ve found it, and the fact that you use it knowing it isn’t going to have newest features (x) (y) and (z), I don’t stress about updates. It’s almost more like hardware in that regard. I think more developers should take that approach.
Of course this is complete and utter nonsense
Reaper - Same amount of developers, compare the last 5 years side by side
Studio One - Same amount of developers, Compare the last 5 years side by side
Bitwig - Same amount of developers, compare the last 5 years side by side
So there is no way that feature requests could not have ALL been incorporated, the developers are fully capable and very good at what they do, they chose NOT to add all the feature requests, it is their software, they decide what they want in it, not you, not me, not any user.
You only need to look at their choice of developments, this is a fun project for them, they obviously have no interest in mass market appeal…
Heres a couple…
Redux - Minimal interest to anybody outside of Renoise users, minimal interest to Renoise users because it is built in to Renoise anyway.
Scripting - Minimal interest to most of the userbase, those that did develop using it have pretty much given up using it.
If everybody started to just look at Renoise for what it is, somebodies spare time hobby project, you would all be happier, stop dreaming of world wide domination, with no piano roll or arranger, and nowadays clip triggering too, that is never going to happen, every other app on the planet for Renoise money or less already has those features, and if you think that tracking will EVER have mass market appeal, you are mad.
(Lets be perfectly clear here, the developers know as well as anybody else that with those additions Renoise will have mass market appeal and they have zero interest in that)
Use it or don’t use it, but you have already been told by the developer that nothing is coming, they are working on something else.
Noppes , the reaper development is small , that part is true , but there is a BIG difference 'justin Frankel is a billionaire ,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Frankel
So the small reaper development team is payed on a monthly basis , we don’t know how much they earn and neither should we care , but it does make a big difference
I don’t know much about the bitwig dev …but they did receive some funds when they were starting out( 2008-2009)
Noppes , the reaper development is small , that part is true , but there is a BIG difference 'justin Frankel is a billionaire ,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Frankel
So the small reaper development team is payed on a monthly basis , we don’t know how much they earn and neither should we care , but it does make a big difference
Come on, do you really think money makes any difference here ? I think it’s more about dedication and fundamental decisions.
Justin was a billionaire way before before Reaper. He earned his money by selling Winamp. He easily could’ve stopped all work by that time, because he doesn’t need to work for money anymore. And no, he didn’t stop, he just started to develop Reaper in 2005, because he’s an enthusiastic programmer and had fun in developing a DAW.
I may be wrong but as far as I know Renoise also has one or two full time coders (taktik at least). They had over fifteen years of development, and Reaper over ten years. So where is the difference ? If it was about money: many users already offered to pay more for more features, but Renoise devs denied it. They could’ve collected money via kickstarter and so on. My impression always was that Renoise devs didn’t want to expand in a more professional manner. They decided to be a niche project.
Come on, do you really think money makes any difference here ? I think it’s more about dedication and fundamental decisions.
Justin was a billionaire way before before Reaper. He earned his money by selling Winamp. He easily could’ve stopped all work by that time, because he doesn’t need to work for money anymore. And no, he didn’t stop, he just started to develop Reaper in 2005, because he’s an enthusiastic programmer and had fun in developing a DAW.
I may be wrong but as far as I know Renoise also has one or two full time coders (taktik at least). They had over fifteen years of development, and Reaper over ten years. So where is the difference ? If it was about money: many users already offered to pay more for more features, but Renoise devs denied it. They could’ve collected money via kickstarter and so on. My impression always was that Renoise devs didn’t want to expand in a more professional manner. They decided to be a niche project.
No, Renoise doesn’t have one or two full time coders! It’s a spare time hobby project!
Why do people keep assuming that Renoise is backed by one or even two FULL TIME coders? It’s quite absurd. Just stop it.
No, Renoise doesn’t have one or two full time coders! It’s a spare time hobby project!
Why do people keep assuming that Renoise is backed by one or even two FULL TIME coders? It’s quite absurd. Just stop it.
Maybe, maybe not. I don’t have that information. AFAIK there’s nothing about it on the Renoise pages. I hear it for the first time and at least the guys take money for their product. So why should the assumption that part of the team behind Renoise makes a living of it be quite absurd ? The opposite assumption would be absurd.
Further, as I’ve already written:if money is a problem why not collect more money ? People would easily pay 100 € for Renoise. Many people already offered to pay more for more features. The usual argument of the devs is: more money doesn’t help, because we just have not more time.
Ok, so far so good. But if there’s enough money maybe one developer could work fulltime for at least 1-2 years. Yes, it’s a risk, but if the result is good, more people will buy Renoise and in the future you could take more money for more features. It’s the usual business.
And last but not least: “the not more time” argument of the devs: if there wasn’t enought time how come that products like Redux are developed beside Renoise ?
No, for me the “no money” and “no time” arguments are both misleading and not convincing.
Maybe, maybe not. I don’t have that information. AFAIK there’s nothing about it on the Renoise pages. I hear it for the first time and at least the guys take money for their product. So why should the assumption that part of the team behind Renoise makes a living of it be quite absurd ? The opposite assumption would be absurd.
Further, as I’ve already written:if money is a problem why not collect more money ? People would easily pay 100 € for Renoise. Many people already offered to pay more for more features. The usual argument of the devs is: more money doesn’t help, because we just have not more time.
Ok, so far so good. But if there’s enough money maybe one developer could work fulltime for at least 1-2 years. Yes, it’s a risk, but if the result is good, more people will buy Renoise and in the future you could take more money for more features. It’s the usual business.
And last but not least: “the not more time” argument of the devs: if there wasn’t enought time how come that products like Redux are developed beside Renoise ?
No, for me the “no money” and “no time” arguments are both misleading and not convincing.
Well, currently this forum has 10856 members.Rough calculation, assuming at least 1/3 of those members have purchased a license for Renoise at $75, that’s about$271.400 in sales total, then spread it outover 15+ years, which is about some $18.000 a year, or $1500 a month. Subtract regular taxes, business costs,website/forums, e-shop, hardware for testing, maybe occasional rent ofa meeting room, etc, then what do you conclude? I conclude that in NO WAY it’s afull timeproject.Part time project, sure, but then we’re talking maybe a few weeks net worth of working time every year. Even if you would re-calculate with 10K registered users, it’s still only lunch money.
Well, currently this forum has 10856 members.Rough calculation, assuming at least 1/3 of those members have purchased a license for Renoise at $75, that’s about$271.400 in sales total, then spread it outover 15+ years, which is about some $18.000 a year, or $1500 a month. Subtract regular taxes, business costs,website/forums, e-shop, hardware for testing, maybe occasional rent ofa meeting room, etc, then what do you conclude? I conclude that in NO WAY it’s afull timeproject.Part time project, sure, but then we’re talking maybe a few weeks net worth of working time every year. Even if you would re-calculate with 10K registered users, it’s still only lunch money.
Your calculations and assumptions are not correct. For example my first Renoise license was only valid till Renoise 3.x. I had to buy a new one, and thus I had to pay for two licenses in 8 years. And regarding the forum member numbers vs. Renoise license holders: it could be much more than 1/3, also people could own licenses without ever visiting the forum.
Finally, how come you are so sure that this isn’t a full time project ? Who told you that ? An hour ago I asked a former Renoise team member and he told me that they had been working full time (at least until 2012).
Yes, the calculations were just rough estimations. Regarding the facts, I don’t remember exactly who said this or that,I thinkit was one of the developers themselves whocommented on these issuessomewhere in these forums a few years ago. And then lots of users have been saying that for years, too, while I’verarely seen anybody suggest otherwise.Before 2012 it was a bit different, yes. For example, taktik was involved with Ableton for eight years andAFAIKtoday is acompanion at SupraMotion.
It seems people missed the point of me mentioning Bitwig and Reaper.
Amount of developers means nothing.
Amount of money made does, the Renoise developers have no interest in more sales or they would have gone the route of other DAWs years ago (Piano roll, linear arranger with audio tracks)
As for Justin Frankel being a billionaire, do your research
1 He was never a billionaire
2 He gave a shit load to charities
3 (important) He does not self fund Reaper, and has confirmed on multiple occasions that it is fully self sustaining, Reaper has a LOT of users haha
As for Justin Frankel being a billionaire, do your research
1 He was never a billionaire
3 (important) He does not self fund Reaper, and has confirmed on multiple occasions that it is fully self sustaining, Reaper has a LOT of users haha
@1: you’re right, according to Wikipedia he sold nullsoft for 100 million dollars. But that would be enough for project funding ^^.
@3: interesting
All of these apologists, I’m left shaking my head at the mental backflips people will do to support people they don’t know for a totally unknown and illogical set of reasons.
The Renoise team still take money for selling their product. They have a duty of care to support it. Put up or shut up - if you can’t support the product don’t sell it. Open source it so it can at least survive and you haven’t completely wasted peoples time. The minute the app stops working with a new update, all those hundreds of hours spent building and working with renoise and redux, the instruments, projects etc, become more useless and potential art/music is lost forever. It’s not cool building a library you care about only to have the cornerstone you trusted on as a workhorse (in my case, redux) ripped out from you at some point.
It’s a great product, by great developers, support it at least, or give it to the world to adopt and change the audio industry in a bigger way. The thing companies sometimes do where they just milk the product for years without support (sylenth guy did it for years and everyone railed against him for that), and then it just disappears or changes completely overnight leaving people stranded (alchemy?) is not just a ‘business decision’, it’s a matter of respect for your customers. I’d never sell a product and then leave my customers stranded. Ever. So stop defending this company guys, you’re ACTUALLY not doing anyone any favours least of all yourselves.
Ranting here that your 70 euro daw was not a goodlong term time investment because it only got a bug fix update in 1 year doesn’t do any favours either. if your time is so expensive, have some sanity checks before you spend it.
Just hop to another daw like the rest of the world. The new doesn’t come out right? - Hop again till it does.
Bitwig almighty costs 300 euro without version number upgrade paths. Lord FL is only the most used daw in the world. Reaper is the dictionary opposite of “elegant in use”.
The renoise team is very small, it physically can’t get any smaller. Renoise competes with other daws in overall methodology, not directly (especially since bitwig).
I personally can’t see renoise and the daw business in general being very lucrative, and if it doesn’t pay the rent every day, you can’t be working on it 8 to 5.
Wow, so much salt and entitlement…
The idea that Renoise is dead has been refuted
Whats with all the negativity? If Renoise aint doing it for you then look elsewhere to fill the voids in your life
This is all a natural thing to happen in relationships.
No, Renoise doesn’t have one or two full time coders! It’s a spare time hobby project!
Why do people keep assuming that Renoise is backed by one or even two FULL TIME coders? It’s quite absurd. Just stop it.
Renoise has an office in Berlin and at least two devs work on it full time. At one time it was probably four.
Renoise has a fluctuating testing & miscellaneous staff (The Renoise Team) and for those people it’s a hobby. Sometimes “Team” and “Core” cross over. The team was at one time much more active. Now it’s mostly core.
The nuance is that “Renoise” isn’t just Renoise “the software” but whatever is done at Renoise HQ or any side projects that involves Renoise tech.
I was part of a wave of people who wanted _“more than just a tracker”_but that didn’t happen. I also wanted scripting at a time when Ableton Live released Max for Live. I don’t see how these ideas are mutually exclusive. Other people who pushed the project in different directions, way more than I ever could, have also come and gone. Some people pushed out other people willingly or otherwise. Some people changed their goals in life. In hindsight, it’s a 17 year project with one constant: Taktik.
This thread gets some things right and other things very wrong. Probably this post too. The Renoise organization prefers no information over any information because it doesn’t like to stress. The problem is that a thread like this causes stress… Merry Christmas?
Source: https://renoise.com/who-are-we