DEVs on what you are currently working on? Redux update?

General Discussion
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This thread gets some things right and other things very wrong. Probably this post too. The Renoise organization prefers no information over any information because it doesn’t like to stress. The problem is that a thread like this causes stress… Merry Christmas?

It’s not the thread that causes, stress. The stress is caused by Renoise organization’s attitude towards users. Ignorance and silence causes stress. Don’t swap cause and effect. It’s like the refugee crisis here in germany. The more the problems are ignored or played down, the more upset people get. It’s a justified and normal process.

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It’s not the thread that causes, stress. The stress is caused by Renoise organization’s attitude towards users. Ignorance and silence causes stress. Don’t swap cause and effect.

Yeah, well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.

I was the we need more communication guy. I was also the complain aggressively rage quit every year then come back guy…

I took many a lump, but 'twas all in good fun.

I’m not sure why i’m participating in this thread… Sorry.

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I was the we need more communication guy.

More communication was so important. And it starts with listening.

I took many a lump, but 'twas all in good fun.

Sorry, I don’t understand … what’s the meaning behind ?

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Renoise has an office in Berlin and at least two devs work on it full time. At one time it was probably four.

[…]

The nuance is that “Renoise” isn’t just Renoise “the software” but whatever is done at Renoise HQ or any side projects that involves Renoise tech.

OK, that actually makesa lot ofsense. Sothetotal work beingdone at Renoise(Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung)could alsoinclude other side projects within a B2B context. The nature of such projects and/or any information about such projects would then of course not be available to the public.

Fair enough. Case closed.

A personal note to Renoise GmbH employee(s):
I’m sorry for trying to put out fire with gasoline in this thread and others. I wish you all the best withthat new secret project of yours,I’m sure it’s going to beawesome whatever it is. Thanks for letting usknowabout it, thanks for Renoise & Redux,a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!

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OK, that actually makesa lot ofsense. Sothetotal work beingdone at Renoise(Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung)could alsoinclude other side projects within a B2B context. The nature of such projects and/or any information about such projects would then of course not be available to the public.

Oh even more assumptions :wink: ?

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It’s not the thread that causes, stress. The stress is caused by Renoise organization’s attitude towards users. Ignorance and silence causes stress. Don’t swap cause and effect. It’s like the refugee crisis here in germany. The more the problems are ignored or played down, the more upset people get. It’s a justified and normal process.

Yes, it’s a justified and normal process. But you can also choose to express yourselfand channel your frustrations in somewhat different ways. All of us want Renoise to be developed further, but such exceptional and rare software as Renoise doesn’t grow on trees. We don’t want to pressure the lead developer and make himfeel that the more time and energy he puts in, the more negativity and bigger can of worms he gets back… Right? And as the saying goes: “You can’t please’em all.” We all got our wishlists for fixes, features and “thou shalt prioritize this” concerns.

Oh even more assumptions :wink: ?

I’d say an educated guess. :wink: A reasonable perspective, something that seems plausible and would also explaina few things. But sure, as I’ve stated countless times, I would also have preferred to getthe actual factsfromthe primary sources, i.e. the developer(s). Who wouldn’t? But since this isnot what the primary sources themselves seem to prefer, I rest my case. I choose to channel mywishes for some lacking features in Renoise by exploring the potential of other DAWs and audio hardware/software instead. I’ll get some things done in Renoise, some things done elsewhere. But I’ll get the job done.

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Anybody who thinks there is no problems in Renoise land, and that the only problem is threads like this, well they are simply a little mad surely, the fact that these threads exist, would suggest entirely that their is problems in Renoise land, at least with it’s userbases perception of Renoise itself.

Simple fix 1, developers be more transparent.

Simple fix 2, developers release faster.

Simple fix 3, open source Renoise.

1 Won’t happen, in recent days the developers have payed the forum with a visit to say “We have a secret” this is their typical stance, so live with it

2 Won’t happen, they have never shown any interest in faster releases, that is if we assume they are capable.

3 Won’t happen, there are closed source 3rd party parts of Renoise, so forget it (Or do you want features removed before it is open sourced)

Take those in to account and let the cold air of “I don’t give a f**k anymore” wash over you, Renoise is just a piece of software, and i suspect it never beat your mother up, and neither did the devs.

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Still amazed at the amount of apologists, and anger at those who bought the software expecting it to be mildly supported - hey even a simple blog post update in a whole year with a mild update about what’s going on, would put a lot of peoples minds at ease. Not everyone checks the forum, I don’t come on here often.

Also the price has very little to do with expectations. If that’s the case, they should be charging more as has been stated many times over and over. Most people would pay it. The price is not NOTHING, on iOS it would buy you a complete DAW, but I do understand price relativism, so if that’s the case charge more. Or bring out a major version update and expect everyone to upgrade more often. But in order to do that you’d have to… you know… like… actually work on the project.

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For the record, i am not apologising for anybody, i think the speed of Renoise development and the stagnant nature of its development in a lot of areas is absolutely horrible, my own personal belief (Notice the word personal, no facts, no truth, just my opinion) is that the developers lost all interest in Renoise many years ago, and anything that was available to be leveraged out of its development over the years would be (Redux as an example)

The reason i say to calm down and not give a f**k is because there really is no point, nothing changes round here, the developers will continue to ignore the forum, then they will pop in now and then and act all high and mighty or butt hurt, then they may release something, and then the cycle will begin again.

They are not terrible communicators, they simply don’t care (Again in my opinion) so why should any of us :wink:

Renoise is what it is, use it, be happy, or move on, those are your options.

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All of these apologists, I’m left shaking my head at the mental backflips people will do to support people they don’t know for a totally unknown and illogical set of reasons.

The Renoise team still take money for selling their product. They have a duty of care to support it. Put up or shut up - if you can’t support the product don’t sell it. Open source it so it can at least survive and you haven’t completely wasted peoples time. The minute the app stops working with a new update, all those hundreds of hours spent building and working with renoise and redux, the instruments, projects etc, become more useless and potential art/music is lost forever. It’s not cool building a library you care about only to have the cornerstone you trusted on as a workhorse (in my case, redux) ripped out from you at some point.

It’s a great product, by great developers, support it at least, or give it to the world to adopt and change the audio industry in a bigger way. The thing companies sometimes do where they just milk the product for years without support (sylenth guy did it for years and everyone railed against him for that), and then it just disappears or changes completely overnight leaving people stranded (alchemy?) is not just a ‘business decision’, it’s a matter of respect for your customers. I’d never sell a product and then leave my customers stranded. Ever. So stop defending this company guys, you’re ACTUALLY not doing anyone any favours least of all yourselves.

They still take money for their product, because it’s well worth the money and if you don’t want to buy it you can use the demo or buy some other DAW. I can’t see why this should be a problem? It’s not like a tax you have been forced to pay or anything like that. You can read about all the release dates for the different versions and bug fix updates, there shouldn’t be any assumptions that the software is being updated once a month. What you see is what you get.

I think last couple of updates has had a lot of useful stuff for me. I wouldn’t mind if they updated the software more often, but i’m glad they don’t just make a lot of half arsed updates that doesn’t work.

Just because the Renoise team does not involve themselves in the vast amounts of post an threads like this, doesn’t mean they don’t care. Why would they bother to answer the same questions over and over again?

If you have a customer that calls you every day to ask what the weather is today, even though you work with computers, then you would start ignoring this customer. The same is with threads and post like these here, why would they even bother to give an answer to this when they have already answered it in thousands of different ways earlier only to be asked the same god damn questions again a few days later? Thank god they don’t, because that would probably steal a lot of energy that could go towards developing a good product.

Developers do not ignore the forum at all, that’s just nonsense. You guys seem to expect that they’re almighty gods from the heavens with super abilities. They aren’t, they’re only human.

You can’t buy a cheap featureless car and expect that it’s fully upgraded with rear view cameras, parking sensors, air condition and GPS in the next free upgrade.

What’s the point in expressing all this negativity towards something that has given us so much and that they have never been greedy about it? All this negativity does not work as fuel towards the project, i would rather belive it has an opposite effect. For how long can someone cope with all this negativity? Why would they bother doing an effort when all you immature kids just complaint anyway?

Please stop complaining and take it for what it is and not for what you want it to be. It’s meaningless use of energy.

In comparison, take a look at for instance software like SynthEdit, it costs about the same as Renoise, is completely outdated and terrible piece of software that features so little for the money’s worth in comparison.

There are a vast amount of software around that essentially rip you off. Renoise is definately not one of those, it’s actually the single best purchase i have ever done. How can i possibly complain about this?

Since i last bought a license for Renoise i have gotten lots of new stuff that i didn’t even expect or hope for when i bought it. Now i got a convolver, i got phrases, improved filters and effects, better gui, a much improved instrument structure and MACROS! God dammit, why the fuck are people complaining? I just don’t get it!

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first world problems.

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first world problems.

Haha, sorry for my rant, i’m done now. It’s just that i’m allergic to unreasonable arguments, but fortunately i got some anti histamines. :stuck_out_tongue:

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I hope the renoise development continues far into the future.

I use renoise and sunvox together…awesome way to work with music.

I’m intrested to see how they implement vertical waveforms in the pattern editor…(seems like it might go that way), maybe video clips?

live long and prosper.

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happy user since 1.27, paid for the updates. Will happily pay more. Keep doing what you do Taktik.

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Regarding the ethic & commercial discussion there’s something essential that have been overlooked. Renoise pretty much is exclusive with their concept in the market today. Well, not monopolized in jurisdiction terms, but simply that’s how reality just is in practical terms.

The concept I’m refering to is the Pattern Editor and how it handles samples, and nothing else (imo). Since other DAWs and plug-ins (samplers etc) covers the rest. Sure, there are other trackers, but not nearly as high quality. Not to say how less frequent they are updating (unless I’ve missed something here).

Point is, it’s not exactly accurate to compare the spot of Renoise in the business to other DAWs which have the more traditional setup since those already have competition in the same pool. Like never before, actually. So, In that regard the Renoise team have succeeded with their business model and can relax. Why should they do otherwise?

They could of course raise the price tag in exchange for more features and updates. For instance, I’m one of those who would be happy to see the Renoise software include the more obvious features of a traditional DAW as a complement to their already unique concept, if not out of the box then at least as extensions (which could be bought optionally by Renoise users).

However, once similar suggestions have been brought up the interest from the developers are pretty mild. That would rather indicate that their price plan estimation is a success already, meaning enough buyers compared to other unrelated incomes. This may be a good sign for them, but a not so good sign for the Renoise users who wish a fast-pace development.

Obviously Renoise is still important enough to continue working on though, from an economic pow.If this was more of a hobby project/“heroic salvation” to the tracker scene, we would’ve been offered the open source code and most of the features which is frequently discussed today would’ve been implemented years ago by a larger developer-community.

So, the only “solution” to this (from the tracker community pow) is probably more competitiveness. Meaning, if there were other decent alternatives which could compete with Renoise, we would probably see more frequent updates and more blog posts around here. That’s simply how the market works.

(Sure, there are tools development for Renoise to just add features as you like but not sure how advanced these can be. Either way, I for one would look forward to a worthy competitor. Crowdfunding and other creative solutions you know, just broaden the view guys. :)It would be interesting to see how many months it would take to catch up Renoise if there were 10-20 people working fulltime. )

Sorry if I might appear a bit too speculative, just trying to think as logical as I can considering the currently known circumstances.

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They still take money for their product, because it’s well worth the money and if you don’t want to buy it you can use the demo or buy some other DAW. I can’t see why this should be a problem?

E.g. because features like wav tracks were “kind of” announced. Also with the the introduction of 2.8 or 3.0 there was talk that this version(s) would lay the ground for later things like wav tracks. I’m granted updates till 4.0 and I wait for features like this for a long time now. I feel tricked and I’m really disappointed about it.

but i’m glad they don’t just make a lot of half arsed updates that doesn’t work.

Reaper provides monthly updates and always worked for me rock solid. It’s possible to deliver frequent updates without breaking things.

Just because the Renoise team does not involve themselves in the vast amounts of post an threads like this, doesn’t mean they don’t care. Why would they bother to answer the same questions over and over again?

Totally untrue ! Problem is, that for certain questions they don’t give ANY answers. They could answer those questions with simple news blogs, faqs whatever. But they don’t. And thus we have threads like this.

You can’t buy a cheap featureless car and expect that it’s fully upgraded with rear view cameras, parking sensors, air condition and GPS in the next free upgrade.

Also wrong. I need a car without fancy stuff. I need bread and butter features,without rear view cameras and that stuff. But they added it ! All I wanted was more bread and butter, but they gave me the vanguard menu ;-).

What’s the point in expressing all this negativity towards something that has given us so much and that they have never been greedy about it? All this negativity does not work as fuel towards the project, i would rather belive it has an opposite effect. For how long can someone cope with all this negativity? Why would they bother doing an effort when all you immature kids just complaint anyway?

The silence and absence of the Renoise team causes negativity. I’m on board here since 2008 and also have contributed some things. In contrast to the Renoise team I never took or earned a cent for my work. But they just ignore many volunteer people like me. And how comes you know my age ? I probably could be your father, mate !

Please stop complaining and take it for what it is and not for what you want it to be. It’s meaningless use of energy.

There’s a reason why people complain. It doesn’t help to play things down again and again. The communication method of the Renoise team (radio silence) is not satisfying. And as long as they stubbornly follow this route, there will be problems and complains and not “happy clappy”. Why is that so difficult to understand ? I

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The slow pace of Renoise development doesn’t bother me. I’ve been with Renoise since the very beginning and I’ve never felt limited. Sure, there are things I’d love to see implemented, but it’s not the end of the world if they’re not. Even if the devs aren’t directly working on Renoise at the moment the fact that Taktik said that whatever they’re working on may directly benefit Renoise in the future is very promising as far as I can see. It’s very important as a developer to take breaks and also go off on tangents in order to reinvigorate and innovate. I completely understand needing to work on other things and support that. With the myriad plugins and rewiring options available I don’t even know why people bother complaining - there’s nearly always a way to get something done no matter how esoteric it is.

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I’m intrested to see how they implement vertical waveforms in the pattern editor…(seems like it might go that way), maybe video clips?

This has discussed in the forum before maybe 1000 times. But I fear it will never be implemented.

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E.g. because features like wav tracks were “kind of” announced. Also with the the introduction of 2.8 or 3.0 there was talk that this version(s) would lay the ground for later things like wav tracks. I’m granted updates till 4.0 and I wait for features like this for a long time now. I feel tricked.

[…]

There’s a reason why people complain. It doesn’t help to play things down again and again. The communication method of the Renoise team (radio silence) is not satisfying. And as long as they stubbornly follow this route, there will be problems and complains. Why is that so difficult to understand ?

And _ right there _ youactually manifestthedeeper causeof the radio silence. Because if reasonable_guys like yourself feel “tricked”, what do you suppose will happen when the_unreasonable guys join the negative chorus with their fragile egosand ruined dreams?

No wonder taktikwould close the door, hide the key andshut down any communication about development, ideas, policies, visions…

What your specific "communicate more!"path also seems toincludeis this moral imperative: Developersshouldn’t be talking so much, because unless they deliver exactly whatthe majorityof users expect according to their interpretations of words (filteredthrough their own subjective distortions, daydreams, projections, etc) that will only lead to disappointments amongmentalities who feel they are entitled to XYZ (or even entitled to neverfeel disappointed)!

What this leads to is only stagnation, because when developers are not granted the right to primarily be humans who make mistakes and adapt toreality byrevising their pathsforward and experiment in freedom, theywill not be open to expose themselves to those who judge them from some sort of mental template that says it’s OK to demand, dictate, criticize and only accept “perfection”.

You see,that’s _ exactly _ why "communicate more"and "more transparancy"will notwork. The devs haveprobably learnt the lesson that it’ssafest to be silentand not talk about anything thatactually isn’t ready to talk about yet. That bigcan of worms simply takes to much time to handle.

Why is that so difficult to understand?

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And _ right there _ youactually manifestthedeeper causeof taktik’s self-chosen radio silence. Because if reasonable_guys like yourself feel “tricked” because practicalreality knocked on the door, what do you suppose will happen when the_unreasonable guys join the negative wave with their fragile egosand ruined dreams?

No wonder taktikwould close the door, hide the key andshut down any communication about development, ideas, policies, visions…

What your "communicate more!"path also seems toincludeis this moral imperative: Developersshouldn’t be talking so much, because unless they deliver exactly what X number of users expect according to their interpretations of words (combined with their own distortions, daydreams, projections, etc) that will lead to disappointments among people who feel they are entitled to XYZ.

What this leads to is only stagnation, because when developers are not granted the right to be humans who make mistakes and adapt toreality byrevising their pathsforward and experiment in freedom, theywill not be open to expose themselves to those who demand, dictate, criticize and only accept “perfection”.

You see,that’s exactly why "communicate more"and "more transparancy"will notwork. The devs haveprobably learnt the lesson that it’ssafest to be silentand not talk about anything thatactually isn’t ready to talk about yet. That bigcan of worms simply takes to much time to handle.

Why is that so difficult to understand?

Fsus4, I don’t expect the devs to be social workers here in the forum. They don’t have to give answers to each and everybody, and don’t have to care for all things. The origin question of this thread was “devs what are you working on ?”. Additional questions would be “devs is feature X,Y,Z on or not on the list the next year / next two year ?”. Or “will the Script API support UNDO behaviour in the next release ?”, Or “when will we receive the next bugfix version ?”. Etc…

They could answer all of this questions without risk. They could publish it on the homepage. They wouldn’t loose time. No big can of worms. And a lot of discussions and speculations would come to an end. And people could better decide if it’s worth to wait, or better look for another solution / DAW . That would be much better than the current situation.