Idea for emulating Linndrum Hi hat effect / 'Randomizing/Humanizin

Anyone have any idea of how it might be possible to set up an instrument that can emulate the effect of the Linndrum hi hat being forced to randomize…

I love making/using hi hat samples, but then when it comes to making different lengths, velocity versions I really loose patience.

Would be great to have an instrument set up, which you could load a sample into that then “randomises” very slightly the velocity/length/etc

I guessed as the Linndrum was doing this as a budget workaround that it might be possible with Renoise’s advanced modulation routing… but i’m a bit lost…

The Linndrum doesn’t use any random parameters. Renoise isn’t able to recreate the original Linndrum behavior, as it always triggers the sample at its start. A simple way to fake the Linndrum behavior would be to randomly trigger sample slices with the 0Sxx command. All you need is an appropriate prepared and looped open hihat sample with a consistent and even amplitude. To this sample then you only have to apply a volume envelope.

To prepare an open hihat sample for the loop you can use (de-)compression. Or simply use the original and raw Linndrum eprom sound to loop.

That’s good, thanks, But I guess that would then require me to enter different 0sxx commands everytime I enter a note in… it’s a good workaround, but I just know I won’t do that :slight_smile:

Currently I just make loads of copies, adjust small things and then tell the keyzoner to play them in a random order… it works so well but such a long setup time…

Well, it’s the way to stay soundwise as close as possible to the Linndrum’s way. You could also permanently play a looped open hihat on a track and trigger an oneshot LFO to control a gainer. That’d be way more comfortable, BUT… the appliance of an LFO-based envelope always comes with ramping/smoothing bewteen parameters. Also when the LFO is retriggered. So you’d lose a lot of the transients of your hihats. And I guess that’s actually specially for hihats something you don’t want to happen.

Entering random values for a single pattern command actually is no big deal. It’s a matter of seconds only for an entire pattern. Maybe there’s even someone out there willing to write some LUA-script for it.

Edit: Just set this up a minute ago. All you have to do is set the 0Sxx command in the effects column (with no value), mark the column and select “selection->randomize” from the context menu. Done. No script required.

There is a way how i create any random modulation.
It is great for two reasons:

  1. It doesn´t cost almost any cpu.
  2. You can use non-full version of vst plugins also.

Steps:

  1. Load any sample

  2. Duplicate it how many you want.

  3. Load any fx plugins into a track (volume shapers, flangers, reverbs etc…)

  4. use that fx button in waveform editor (it applies track fx to a sample)

  5. change parameters of these plugins

  6. use that fx button with other sample

  7. do it how many times you want…

  8. layer these samples and set random feature in keyzone editor

  9. delete these fxs from track (or maybe create different global fxs)

  10. now you have a lot of different modulations with same sound source…

Entering random values for a single pattern command actually is no big deal. It’s a matter of seconds only for an entire pattern. Maybe there’s even someone out there willing to write some LUA-script for it.

yes, I see, I know you’re right. I’m just being obstinate because I like my “scroll around, add notes, hit space, listen” type of workflow but I thinkh it’s worth doing it.

Akiz: That’s what i’m doing already, it’s fine, but the setup time is a chore

Ok, i was thinking about faster solution and realized that if 0Sxx (Sx respectivelly) effect could be inserted into volume/pan/delay collumn, it would be very easy.
You would create phrase with a lot of collumns, insert c4 into every collumn and make 0Sxx effect different for every collumn.
Then you would use combination of 0Yxx and Yx so random note (collumn) would be selected.
And the you would save the pattern. So you can recall this “random start position” anytime you want.

that’s a very good idea! I will try that now

I am not with Renoise so i cant test it right now but i think that sX command cant be put into vol/delay/pan collumn so you cant do this trick (and FX collumn is note collumn independent).

On the other hand i dont think that it would be big problem to implement sX effect into these collumns…
but internal looping of sample is also wanted feature because then you can emulate some analog devices very well…

If we look at that video in the first post, and how it achieves “random” sound by having an infinite sample loop. This is possible to do in Renoise too - you just need to encapsulate the note in a phrase and give it a glide command (Gxx) - this will cause the sample to “never stop”, but retrigger [the volume envelope] whenever you play the phrase…

Only downside I guess is that you can’t live play it, since you need to release a key/pad before you can hit it again. But it works just fine when entering notes into the pattern editor.

Here is an example xrns

5422 LinnStyleHat.xrns

If we look at that video in the first post, and how it achieves “random” sound by having an infinite sample loop. This is possible to do in Renoise too - you just need to encapsulate the note in a phrase and give it a glide command (Gxx) - this will cause the sample to “never stop”, but retrigger whenever you play the phrase…

Only downside I guess is that you can’t live play it, since you need to release a key/pad before you can hit it again. But it works just fine when entering notes into the pattern editor.

Here is an example xrns

attachicon.gifLinnStyleHat.xrns

this is very very nice! thank you :dribble: it’s exactly that level of soft variation i was looking for

Only downside I guess is that you can’t live play it, since you need to release a key/pad before you can hit it again. But it works just fine when entering notes into the pattern editor.

Here is an example xrns

attachicon.gifLinnStyleHat.xrns

This is possible to do in Renoise too - you just need to encapsulate the note in a phrase and give it a glide command (Gxx) - this will cause the sample to “never stop”, but retrigger whenever you play the phrase…

Interesting approach and a neat solution! Reading it, it was a bit confusing first, because of the retriggering mentioned. So I guess it’s worth to clarify that indeed only the modulations / envelopes are retriggered and not the sample itself. Even playing different keys with a tonal wavecycle seems to have no “glide”-artifacts with 0G00 (like in my rememberances it was in older Renoise versions. Not 100% sure about it.) So this might become handy for a lot of other instruments too.

Very nice 1! :slight_smile:

~~Edit: There is still one thing to regard. Once the instrument has reached the end of the volume envelope (with zero volume), also the internal sample replay will be stopped. Then also the sample will be retriggered with the next keystroke! So it’s sadly most likely, that this won’t work for most hihat sequences (but therefore still for a lot of other instruments, specially leads and pads!).

A solution for this might be to keep a very long release phase or a static level on minimal volume (so the sample keeps running & looping) and then apply a gate to the signal.~~ <- Behavior was caused by using a fader only for volume envelope. AHDSR works fine, also in combo with a fader.

So I guess it’s worth to clarify that indeed only the modulations / envelopes are retriggered and not the sample itself. Even playing different keys with a tonal wavecycle seems to have no “glide”-artifacts with 0G00 (like in my rememberances it was in older Renoise versions. Not 100% sure about it.)

Ah yes, if you want to play the sample at different pitches, the command inside the phrase should be GFF.

G00 will simply play the hihat sample at the pitch at which it was first triggered.

nce the instrument has reached the end of the volume envelope (with zero volume), also the internal sample replay will be stopped. Then also the sample will be retriggered with the next keystroke! So it’s sadly most likely, that this won’t work for most hihat sequences

No, sample playback should continue until it receives a note-off. You can see this for yourself if you open the sampler and watch the playback cursor (pitching the sample down a few octaves makes it easier to see).

And yes, this is an interesting technique to apply to other types of sounds as well. One caveat to be aware of is, that entering a glide command into the phrase will only have an effect when there is also a envelope or ADHSR device present in the volume modulation. I guess this is because the sample will otherwise “die” the very moment it’s being released.

Ah yes, if you want to play the sample at different pitches, the command inside the phrase should be GFF.

G00 will simply play the hihat sample at the pitch at which it was first triggered.

No, sample playback should continue until it receives a note-off. You can see this for yourself if you open the sampler and watch the playback cursor (pitching the sample down a few octaves makes it easier to see).

And yes, this is an interesting technique to apply to other types of sounds as well. One caveat to be aware of is, that entering a glide command into the phrase will only have an effect when there is also a envelope or ADHSR device present in the volume modulation. I guess this is because the sample will otherwise “die” the very moment it’s being released.

I was just about to post again. :slight_smile: There is something fishy going on. No matter what I did in my variation of your file, it kept retriggering the sample. Dafuq? :smashed: Will try to recreate this behavior and find out what this is about.

Edit: Found it already. I was using a fader only for the volume. And when using a fader only, Renoise doesn’t seem to care about the sample loop or glide. It simply retriggers the sample everytime. A fader in combination with AHDSR still works fine. :unsure: Dunno if this is intentional behavior for some reason. If not so, this might probably be considered a bug.

The 0G00 within the phrase btw worked pretty much exactly the way I’d usually expect it. I believe to remember back then there was always glide applied within 1 tick. But like I said, I’m not 100% sure about that anymore. Playing the “0-glided” phrase now from within the pattern did immediate frequency switches without that “mikro-glide”. Which is fine and perfect. :slight_smile:

A fader in combination with AHDSR still works fine. :unsure: Dunno if this intentional behavior for some reason. If not so, this might probably be considered a bug.

Only the Envelope/AHDSR devices have a release stage, but it’s not super-intuitive since you can effectively turn them all the way down to 0ms and they will still manage to pull off this little trick.

I’ve been confused about this a couple of times too :slight_smile:

Only the Envelope/AHDSR devices have a release stage, but it’s not super-intuitive since you can effectively turn them all the way down to 0ms and they will still manage to pull off this little trick.

I’ve been confused about this a couple of times too :slight_smile:

When I’d use a AHDSR - with 100% sustain only - multiplied with a fader the theoretical result would be exactly the same as without the AHDSR. But in practice it’s not. That’s indeed pretty confusing. I can see at least one reason, why not all modulation types share that behavior. But maybe it’d be a good idea to add the special feature of the AHDSR to the documentation then. Or even better… drop the behavior for the AHDSR and introduce different loop and trigger modes :ph34r:https://forum.renoise.com/t/new-sample-modes/35982… like I suggested almost 3 years ago. :slight_smile: SCNR B)

If we look at that video in the first post, and how it achieves “random” sound by having an infinite sample loop. This is possible to do in Renoise too - you just need to encapsulate the note in a phrase and give it a glide command (Gxx) - this will cause the sample to “never stop”, but retrigger [the volume envelope] whenever you play the phrase…

Only downside I guess is that you can’t live play it, since you need to release a key/pad before you can hit it again. But it works just fine when entering notes into the pattern editor.

Here is an example xrns

attachicon.gifLinnStyleHat.xrns

Very cool!

Slightly changed danoise’s nice example to show you how to automate the decay.

So I was going to use this and had to fiddle with it in detail. And the simple result is: it doesn’t work. And it never did. Yes, the sample isn’t retriggered, when the release phase is still on. But neither are the envelopes of the instrument are properly retriggered. The entire transients are eaten up for breakfast, as Renoise still seems to ramp between huge parameter changes. So what happens is, when the (volume, filter, what ever) envelopes are retriggered, Renoise smoothes things out and kills everything, what is supposed to be a percussive transient.

This solution might work for pads, drones and stuff. But it doesn’t work for anything with a even slighty percussive character. As long as I’m using Renoise this essential problem (ramping/smoothing of retriggered envelopes) existed. And it still does.

If the only difference is the sample start, then you perhaps could make a phrase with 12 random hits on the first line and with a Sxx command to offset the sample start on each note (in note fx column) and a Y00 on a line effect column. Save the phrase and just load it on all your hihats.

Alternatively you could render some different versions of the hihat and set the keyzones overlap to random.