Key Tracking And Velocity Tracking In Instrument Envelopes

Ideas & suggestions
1

Feature suggestion for Renoise:

In Envelopes (particularly: Cutoff (filter cutoff) envelope and Volume envelope) in Instrument Settings : Sample (and, maybe, also, Plugin):

O “per-note” key-tracking (with amount option and key-range (or “center key” number) option) and “per-note” velocity-tracking (with amount option and velocity-range (or “center velocity” number) option)

This feature would make for the ability to make sample-based instruments sound more realistic (and this feature, if implemented in Instrument Settings also for plugin instruments, would make for ability to also make all plugin instruments sound more realistic in that sense).

Edit:

In the title of this topic thread, I changed the term “‘Per-Note’” to the term “Polyphonic”.

Edit:

I changed the title of this topic thread from “Polyphonic Key-&-Vel-Tracking In Envs In Instr. Settings” to “Key Tracking and Velocity Tracking in Instrument Envelopes”

Edit:

I recently noticed that part of this suggestion (the part about Velocity Tracking) was, in essence, suggested, previously, by Jenoki, in the topic thread “Velocity Control In Instrument Editor”.

2

What is the difference between using key and velocity device on the track itself?

If they get applied to the internal instrument envelopes, you might have a good suggestion.
For plugins this doesn’t do really better or worse when it regards to realism.
Plugins rely better on Midi CC messages or the instrument automation device for realistic responses, if they support it and those devices you can have them controled by the keytracking or velocity device.

The only real improvement would be that you get an instant impression of the input when you hit a note on your (midi) keyboard.

3

vV,

You wrote:

“What is the difference between using key and velocity device on the track itself?”

In “per-note” tracking, the tracking would apply the appropriate cutoff and/or volume for each individual note - which, I think, would be unlike what the tracking DSP devices in the Track DSPs section do. I think that the tracking DSP devices in the Track DSPs section apply values (for cutoff, volume, etc) globally, to all of the notes in any one particular track, and I think that they may do so in way which, in some way, applies the average of the sum of the velocity/key amounts of all of the notes in any one particular track.

Also, you wrote:

“For plugins this doesn’t do really better or worse when it regards to realism.”

I think that I may not understand what you wrote about that, but my understanding is that in “per-note” tracking for cutoff and volume for plugin instruments, the effect would be the same as would be the effect for sample intruments. For example: individual notes, of any particular plugin instrument, played with lesser velocity could be specified to each have a lower cutoff freqency - a more “muted” sound - than would have each of those individual notes, of that plugin instrument, played with greater velocity.

A clarification:

I think that it may be accurate, and more clear, to, instead of calling what I suggested “‘per-note’ key-tracking” and “‘per-note’ velocity-tracking”, call what I suggested “polyphonic key-tracking” and “polyphonic velocity-tracking”.

4

Do you actually mean per Note, or per Sample/Zone? I believe Sample/Zone is to come in later versions, it has been said this is only the start of Instrument advances, but not sure I see the point in Per Note…

5

kazakore,

I mean the following.

The particular cutoff/volume/etc value (or values) for the audio playback of each individual note of any particular sample instrument (and, maybe, also, of any particular plugin instrument) would be calculated automatically, and would be applied automatically, accordingly, individually, to each individually played note of that instrument.

The tracking amount, and tracking range, for the cutoff/volume/etc would be specified in the “Instrument Settings : Sample : Envelopes” section for each sample of each sample instrument (and, if implemented for plugin instruments, would be applied, for plugin instruments, in a, currently non-existant, “Instrument Settings : Plugin : Envelopes” section for each plugin instrument).

6

Why do you want Per Note, as oppose to Per Sample/Keyzone?

Personally I don’t see any point and would currently have to disagree…

7

kazakore,

What I am suggesting is key-tracking and velocity-tracking that is exactly like the key-tracking and velocity-tracking of the key-tracking and velocity-tracking Track DSP devices, but which, unlike like the key-tracking and velocity-tracking of the key-tracking and velocity-tracking Track DSP devices, calculates for, and applies to, individual notes played, as opposed to applying globally to all notes played in a track. Applying globally to all notes played in a track is, I think, the way that the key-tracking and velocity-tracking Track DSP devices apply key-tracking and velocity-tracking of values.

In my last previous comment, I have proposed how to implement what I am suggesting.

8

I called what I am suggesting “‘per-note’ key-tracking” and “‘per-note’ velocity-tracking”.

However, I think that, for clarity, it would be better to call what I am suggesting “polyphonic key-tracking” and “polyphonic velocity-tracking”.

9

How can you have a different key tracking for different notes when that is precisely what key tracking does? Makes no sense to me at all!

Something like Envelope Amount for Velocity would be a good idea and sure it is being thought about with the many advancements planned…

And you start going on about SAMPLES in your last post, which was my very first question! Whether you actually meant Notes or Sample/Keyzones. As per note makes little little sense for anything, per sample/keyzone has been discussed many times and is likely to come in future.

Try and be consistent and clear as currently you are making very little sense and jumping over the place as far as I can tell… Try giving a real-world example of where and how you would use it rather than loads of waffle that is hard to follow.

Or am I the only one getting lost and it’s clear as crystal to everybody else?

10

kazakore,

The Yamaha Motif synthesizer, in it’s Voices, does what I am proposing.

11

For plugins it may not always be (at least i was not assuming you were only aiming for cut-off and volume in which you are right), because they output the complete audio stream in one go and not individual audio streams on a per note basis. That fact makes it hard to control plugins on a very high precision level.
These are options you can apply to plugins on a per note basis and that is still quite a lot:
velocity
note-cut / note off
retrigger (not all plugins allow the pan/vol retrig command on per-note basis though)

Then it only matters what plugins allow you to throw at it regarding MIDI CC controls or controling its own internal parameters that it shares with Renoise.

Whatever the Renoise internal instrument shall support in the future on this level (because Kazakore mentioned the instrument structure will be expanded more in the future), against plugins the difference shall only grow larger.

12

vV,

Yes, I understand.

But, just for me to be certain: are there, with plugins, individual separate digital audio streams that are generated that each correspond to each individual note played and that can each be frequency-filtered (lp cut-off, etc), and raised and lowered in amplitude, individually?

I was thinking mainly only about cut-off and volume.

In any case, I was thinking about plugins, about this suggestion, only as a side-thought. My main thought, about this suggestion, was about samples.

I was just proposing this suggestion just as a suggestion. I think that it’s a simple and good way of making synthesized musical instruments sound realistic (synthesized musical instruments being: digital sample-based, and digital computer-generated (virtual) of all kinds, and physical voltage-controlled analogue synthesized (which, I think, may be able to be tracked/modified via physical analogue methodology)).

In any case, Renoise is perfect for me just the way it is now (as of 2.7.0 beta) (but without a certain particular “*Instr. MIDI Control” Track DSP device MIDI CC sending bug that I recently reported about). Renoise is the only music creation program that has all of the features that I want. I love Renoise.

13

DSK drumz and drumatic are plugins that route specific notes to specific percussion elements and these elements have their separate audio channel that you can route to specific tracks.
I don’t know if there are synth’s with this kind of technique, mostly not. (synths mostly even don’t support multiple audio tracks at all)

14

vV,

You wrote:

“DSK drumz and drumatic are plugins that route specific notes to specific percussion elements and these elements have their separate audio channel that you can route to specific tracks.
I don’t know if there are synth’s with this kind of technique, mostly not. (synths mostly even don’t support multiple audio tracks at all)”

Yes, I think that this technique is not very common.

However:

I know that the Yamaha Motif series of synthesizers employs this technique in it’s Voices (which are each sets of samplesets).

Also, I used to use the program Sync Modular to make software synths in which I employed this technique.

I think that I may not be expressing didn’t express myself clearly. It’s O.K. though. This suggestion is not a big issue for me. I was just suggesting it as a suggestion.

15

Hmmz, i could swear you were suggesting it by demand :)

16

What?

I’m sorry if I gave that impression.

As I said, I think that I didn’t express myself clearly.

I suffer from severe OCD, which makes communicating in writing painful and difficult for me.

I apologize if I offended anyone.

17

In trying to communicate, I felt frustration in not being understood, and I felt the pain that I experience from the OCD that I suffer from.

As for wording which I used which I think may have been interpreted as being demanding:

I wasn’t demanding for anything to be implemented. I was frustrated by, and upset about, not being understood.

18

chill out. i’m sure vV used the smiley for a reason. this is not a forum where people need to go round excusing themselves for maybe stepping on each others toes sometimes. at any rate, i read your stuff as well, and did not think it sounded demanding.

19

rhowaldt,

Thank you very much for writing that to me. It made me feel much better. Thank you.

Dan

20

Well Instrument Envelopes already are Polyphonic (play a note, watch the bar/listen, then play another note as you will see both trigger the envelopes for just that single note.) Currently there is no Envelope Amount, which is often assigned to Velocity but could just as easily be assigned to Key Tracking, so I guess this is really what you are trying to ask for. Or do you want it to interact with DSPs outside of the Instrument itself, like the Meta Devices which obviously have to react to everything in a Track? This would likely be a little harder than Env Amt on Instrument Envelopes but hopefully at least the latter will come soon…