the whole point about this thread,is that someone posted a "sort of half feature"in renoise,that could be a good starting point,to make renoise more live-use friendly
alot of people would like to be able to also be able to use renoise in that sort of way
so please keep on this topic,and DONT post links to all different(even if they are good for live-use)software
And that someone who posted a half feature solution made it very clear that all those system were directly taken from ableton live.
I’m totally in the subject. You made a post with the “what sort of feature should be done to make reason more usable in live environment”, the answer is pretty clear, no one will reinvent the wheel, and quiet some others software have already answered those questions years ago. Is it forbidden to give the best example avaible on the market?
Is it possible to make half a joke without some kind of nerd fanboy with a shovel pole up his ass telling for the bazillions time that “live/fl/insertanythingthatisn’tatracker SUCKS BALL OMG YEAH IT SUCKS SO BAD IT’S JUST HYPE” (not you, the guy above)?
Of course you still can do live performance with a tracker, or with a xylophone only, or with winamp for that matter. Deal with it, trackers aren’t live oriented, is it a f****ing crime to point out examples that have been proven to actually WORK?
Oh and get a clue, there are tons of more important stuff to be included in Renoise before making it “more live oriented”, so you can still grow quiet a nice beard till the day Renoise or any other tracker will get near even 10% of the live potential of ableton’s. Making this whole thread, pointless.
I’d be most curious to hear from the main dev whether or not some sort of live control is planned for next Renoise release. If yes, will it allow jumping to pattern sequence loops?
Heck, now that I returned to working with sampled instruments only (the way things were before VSTS) I found myself caring much less about the arranger and routing, but much more about live control. 
Although Tactic and the team deserve the nobel prize for what they did on Renoise already, I’d still ask.
IMHO trackers are actually really good for live usage, depending on what you want to achieve of course. Just yesterday, we were 3 guys playing music: Renoise was the main sequencer, and everything was written while playing (using muted note columns/tracks and the sort), turning knobs and abusing my Mackie mixer console. In Live you’d have a hard time emulating what we did, Renoise can change patterns instantly and it really - as it says on the PR blurb - is literally at your fingertips :-). That said, most of the features that I’ve proposed (especially clips) are actually more aimed at compositional use - but lend themselves equally well to live usage - if done right.
Perhaps we should think more about what actually defines a “live mode” as opposed to writing music? For instance, when writing notes while the track is playing vs. inputting notes into a pattern editor while the sequencer is paused. Both are valid options, and I suspect that many of us will choose the first option, looping a pattern while trying out different possibilities. If we were to focus on such a methodology, improvements would be benificial to both people who write music, and people who play music - my point being that the line between writing and playing/performing is pretty blurry sometimes.
well, thanks very much for pointing with such striking and dumbfounding clearness the very nature of my turgid persona.
In fact when characterizing myself I’d say something even harsher, with words bordering on brutal obscenities and vulgar filth, so, thank you again for putting it so lighlty for my untrained ears.
All of Renoise current ‘pattern’ power could/should be maintained & integrated in a future aranger. If patterns with different speedsettings and pattern-lengths would be represented as different ‘block’ lengths in the arranger (like in Fl Studio’s playlist), and could be mixed horizontally…you’d have enormous creative potential with the bonus of increased visual oversight. Why would the current arranging strengths be in danger with the addition of an arranger? You still have patterns, but now you can mix them with other patterns.
Regarding the live thing, I hope one day it will be possible to do something like in Steinbergs Sequel (simple, cheap, but pretty powerful app for the kids). Here you can set up a string of patterns that you want to play and can easily manipulate the order of the sequences by clicking pattern-block representations live. You can set things like when you want the clicked pattern-block to jump in/ play…for example: play right after the last pattern has finished / immediately when you click / in sub divisions of time (1/2 , 1/4 of pattern) etc etc. Basic stuff, but funky to be able to change the sequence of a song on the fly. I bet they ripped this from Ableton, but I never played with that one…
When it comes to playing live, I’d very much like to avoid, ahem, clicking anything, because my hands are kinda busy playing the instrument. So’ I’d prefer pressing single buttons.
Oh, and
Well, wrong.
No, of course it’s not a crime to give the only examples you know of, but it’s sort of uncool to automatically qualify them as ‘the best’.
That ‘market’ thing is kinda fishy nowadays, and there’s sometimes an easier way of doing things than an expensive ‘market’ solution offers.
It’s just a matter of curiosity and inventiveness.
yeah i know what you mean, and i have considered the same, but then, the problem with fruity loops is that the blocks make some really simple sequencing decisions unbelievably awkward… like when i want to work on a loop where a pad comes in half a beat early, i can’t have hung notes carrying over - or when i want a note to come in early in the arranger, say on a new track, i’ve got to figure out some weird shaped track length and then sequence it out of phase with the rest of the tune
it’s workable, but the fact things like that require more thought/effort, when they shouldn’t, skews your whole thinking (imo) - and i spent 10-odd years with time-line sequencers before i ever tried a tracker… i mean, that’s why guys like Snares and Squarepusher program in trackers or on hardware sequencers isn’t it; because the simplicity makes complex things much easier… (personally, i also think seeing your arrangement too visually really messes with your thinking)
an alternative idea which i thrown around would be to have the pattern arranger (as it is), but with optional extra columns… at every step, the longer pattern would play through from start to finish, while the shorter pattern/s loop; then it moves on to the next step…
i did think that would be useful for looped music, and for creating nonlinear arrangements, where you might want an ambience to repeat out of phase with a melodic track - sort of thing you can do in Live… so you can set up 6 patterns, all of different lengths, and create something which never actually repeats, as everything’s looping at different points
If the pattern editor was to automatically display the current pattern in the currently selected row, Renoise workflow would even remain unchanged, until an additional pattern “row” was added. It’s a really interesting concept!
I was kinda thinking along this line a while ago:
http://www.renoise.com/board/index.php?s=&…ost&p=49843
http://www.renoise.com/board/index.php?s=&…ost&p=81496
But I was persuaded that clips was the way to go, since clips would be able to span several tracks and extend outside the pattern in which it was triggered. As I understood, clips would also be able to contain/trigger sub clips… and if we could map mute/solo, loop on/off, and trigger clips from a midi keyboard we’d probably have a powerful and flexible live and composing environment. And no one would be forced to use clips, things would work like they do today.
yes i think the clips is the way to do it,and if we was able to trigger sub-clips,loop on/off then it would certainly be a powerfull live enviroment 
i thought it could be! 
seems truer to the tracking concept to me too… i think anything resembling a timeline is crossing over into
another style of sequencing
i suppose this is roughly how i’d envision it
times when i’ve thought this could be useful are when you want to get ideas down quickly, say you’re making an 8 bar loop… you
could program a single bar of drums, then create a new pattern, 8 bars in length, and get to work straight away on the musical
elements, while your drum pattern loops away… if you want to adjust the programming of the drums at any time, one keypress
(switch to the drum pattern) and you only need to change things once
when you’re in the 8 bar pattern, you can see all the track data from the drum pattern, looped (in its appropriate tracks,) in a
transparent/dull colour, to keep track of programming - keep things tracker-like
i’d probably have a consolidate pattern option too, so the looped data from the other patterns gets written into the longest track
(other patterns disappear) so you can make more specific edits once you’re happy with everything
i suppose if track data overlapped - you had two events on the same track, in different patterns playing together - you could just
treat it as if there were another column… or… the longer track gets priority… an interesting aspect of that could be that you may
want a looped drum pattern, but you might want to add a roll or a specific note off somewhere - you add it to the long pattern,
and it affects the loop seamlessly
Yes, timelines are evil!
I’m thinking that we need to pull of a full feature design for this concept, as well as the zoomable (clip-based) one, and let a voting procedure decide which one it’s going to be. In a sense, they are equally powerful.
With an expanded pattern arranger, we would need to have full keyboard support for everything…this is probably the hardest part to figure out, since the keyboard is pretty much fully mapped as it is (and I would like to have full access while in pattern editor and mixer view).
Also, should there be a upper limit to the number of simultaneously playing patterns? Personally, I don’t think so, it would restrict the way one could use it. But there might be technical limitations we are not aware of?
And I think the screenshot by dby is better at visualizing that the pattern is actually playing continuously, instead of repeating over and over again (for patterns with varying lengths, this could perhaps even be indicated by a dotted line or something…).
But, back to work…
oh yeah, this screen wasn’t loading for me before, i think the layout of this looks excellent
altho, yeah, i’d personally have it all kept within the usual fixed arrangement of tracks so there’d be the potential for cross-pattern-programming… imagine it would keep the mixer and integration simpler too
i’d have thought unlimited tracks would be the ideal… could essentially give you exactly the same functionality as Live!'s loop page (whatever its proper name is!), you could have pattern mutes, unmutes, pattern increments, etc. all cued to tempo/bars/quantize
option for whether you want a shorter track to play through once or repeat continuously perhaps? maybe colour change, but yeah, dots might symbolise that rather well
…Sometimes, i wonder if i look at the same thing some of you are seeing cuz
i access the live-mode every time i use renoise.
it’s so frekin simple you will kick yourself. well. once it makes sense of course.
this button in the top left corner:
you can press it with the mouse or you can press the spacebar of the (drumroll please) Qwerty Keyboard!!
it’s totally wicked cuz it works just like the start/stop button on a technics 1200.
with a midi controller you can do even more!
examples is: fade tracks, mute tracks.
see, this is much more powerful than you can imagine especially when you route signals with send tracks.
look at the tools you have recieved and you use them to their Potential.
stop peaking in through the windows.
open the door to your imagination and step inside.
So how does this solve the “editing other patterns than the one that is playing” dilemma? 
reading thread (… live in renoise… ableton… not like ableton… like ableton… buzz… like buzz… trackers… blah… blah… blah) getting pissed
stop this!
STOP!!!
AND
GET
FUCKING
CREATIVE
(sorry… 
)
I saw Tim Exile last year. The guy has the craziest LIVE act I’ve ever seen (well, maybe apart from Jamie Lidell). It was mindblowing!
well… my point was just, if you build a renoise live mode, then do something unique.
cool thing would be…
just my 2 cents. 
you got me on that one.
after a thought or 2…
ssh access over a network from another computer! 