May Switch To Renoise But...

Hello. I started producing eletronic music six month ago and I’m currently using fl studio.
I’m nowhere near decent yet but plan on being so, and much more^^ but ive been told that sooner or later ill be limitated by fl, and that id better start learning a new daw as soon as possible. I dont know if its true but i wont completely abandon fl anyway, and i like the idea of having several cordes a mon arc.
Ive been advised renoise, plus i know that artists such as venetian snares use it (while i dont know of anyone i consider really good working with fl) so i want at least to try it!

But… i downloaded the demo and read the short manual, and there seem to be a big issue. You can only put patterns one after the other! (while in fl and i guess other daws you have as parralel room as you want) not only it ruins the idea of having patterns in the first place, but say you make a loop that’s gonna stay here for a while while you build stuff on top of it. now you want to make small changes in this loop. Do you have to mass copy paste??? and this is a frequently occuring situation! how does it not completely fuck up your workflow? how do you deal with that?

(i hope my english is understandable)

Hi, and welcome ! :)

On the left hand side, you can expand a ‘Pattern Matrix’

This might make it more understandable for you, coming from fruity loops. It is quite similar to arrange ‘cells’ from each pattern simply by dragging and dropping them.

http://tutorials.renoise.com/wiki/Pattern_Matrix

Hope this helps !

mmmhm… it certainly gives more flexibility but doesnt solve the issue i raised, or am i completely stupid?
is it possible to have the same cell in differnent pattern so that when you change it in one pattern it will affect all the others? and if not what do you do when you have to do so?

You can use aliases which is the same as shared patterns on FL Studio. Either ALT-Click and drag a pattern in the playlist to a new slot or right click on an empty slot and select Create Alias.

But then it has to be the whole pattern so not really practical…

considering the replies im not sure that i made my point clear.

say you have a stupid hihat doing his little thing. it keeps doing it for a while so you cant alias it because the rest of the track changes. it just remains as you duplicate patterns to advance your track. then you want to add a ghost note to it, and everywhere. do you have to manually edit each different pattern?

No?

Re-read: http://tutorials.renoise.com/wiki/Pattern_Matrix#Aliasing_Blocks

ooook i misread

sorry for your time wasted

edit : just to be sure i understood it well, a aliases of a block can be used in another pattern that the one the block comes from?

You can use aliases in any pattern you want, as many times in a song as you want.

What kind of limitations there suppose to be in the future of fl?

You don’t consider any of these ones good?? :huh:

http://www.image-line.com/documents/flstudio.html

If you like FLStudio, and you are interested in Renoise… Nothing is stopping you, from using both at the same time!! :walkman:

Ok perfect i think im gonna learn renoise :)

No i meant, all these people claiming that fl is just a nice toy and not the right tool for transcendental mindfucking artistic revolution. I have no idea how true is this though, but i cant spend 30 years on each daw just to make my opinion right?

Well to be honest i dont know 90% of them but for instance basshunter, he’s not unlistenable, but seriously… wouldnt take his stuff on a 16GO ipod to a desert island would you?

yep.

Looking at your first post again I wouldn’t be worried about being limited by FL Studio. You don’t want to make the mistake a lot of people make (like me for instance :unsure: ) that it’s your DAW or your synth’s that are holding you back. You can then go through an endless cycle of testing and trying to work on new software rather than producing anything. Both FL Studio and Renoise are very capable, just choose whatever you feel most comfortable working with.

Yeah you’re right i guess. Besides if ever i feel the need to change it’s only ~20 hours to get used to the new one, a sleepless drug-free weekend that’s nothing :)

On the other hand renoise seems cool i may try it anyway

About what’s holding me back it’s the loop trap, i have a hundred of potentially great stuff and i didnt even finished one track yet. I think i should watch tutorials of specific genres and then produce cliché tracks a la chaine focusing on getting things done fast and neglecting the artistic side, in order to improve my organisation skills

Of all the DAWs that could limit you, I’d put FL Studio as the very last on the list. There’s very little it can’t do. I’d say it’s more problematic because there are so many ways to do pretty much anything.

For big artists that use it, look no further than Wisp. He’s kind of the shit.

That being said, Renoise is still by far my favorite DAW, and that’s because it’s intuitive, dependable, and is geared toward lighting-fast workflow.

PS: Here’s some FL Studio + Renoise. :)

Good news! Thank you.

I will. Arf… so much to listen and so little available eartime… why dont we live a couple thousand years more?

lol wut. no piano roll you have to type everything… plus the stupid HEX thing. Then again when i started with fl i tought it was the most inintuitive shit in the world and now im fine

woa seriously? Ca envoie du phat paté as we say here! i cant help criticizing but i will as i would with an aphex twin masterpiece.
So. At first listen im delighted i expected some shit from a random forumer and i dont notice defects.
Second listen. I definitely like the intro lead and this is to be noted since i hate leads in general. Then the bass comes. mmmhm these harmonic progression they upset me and i like them at the same time but finally its fine, fortunately i didnt listen too much Bach lately. Then oooh slowing down kick drill nice. Then the drums. I like the notes placement and especially the drills but… it feels somewhat empty. i dont know how to explain… After that it suddenly stops and i know the effect is intended but i dont like it. i really dont. When the bass comes back i like it but half a dozen loops after that i cant stand it anymore. the rest is fine, i still do like the lead.
About the whole track : i like the mood but it lacks a soulraping intense part.
I dont know how my comment sound but to sum it up i think it’s a very good track! I’m downloading the album right now. Name your price… Im kinda short on money these days sorry^^ one day ill be rich ill pay every single artist i remember

May I abuse your kindness and ask a couple questions?
What did you do with fl and what did you dowith renoise?
How do you automate stuff like filters? enveloppe controllers on notes? recording? lfo with parameters automated by option 1 or 2?
The drums, did you : find a loop and slice it? Make a loop and slice it? Or sequence the whole thing from single hits?

And completely unrelated, but i need a soft synth which one would you advise? Im talking of a big does-everything machine like sytrus in fl. Im afraid of those^^ but i feel i need it it’s worth the time investment. Im currently using 3osc + mass effects or real instruments like piano or doublebass pizz + mass effects or even pitched kick/snares/hats for certain situations. I need a synth^^

Trust me dude. Once you get a few keyboard shortcuts down, you’ll realize how much faster and more granular you can be with a tracker. Then the world will be your burrito.

Thanks for the critique. Constructive criticism is always useful. There were a lot of things that aren’t perfect about this track, but I’m still not entirely comfortable with FL, so it’s always a kind of back and forth with it. It’s interesting to hear someone say that they hate leads. Do you prefer focus on percussion? Or are you more of a soundscape kind of guy? I’m generally all about my melodies. I like to fidget with interesting things when it comes to chordwork, though I’ve lately been in a rut of using pretty much the same progression for a whole song. As for the intro and the drop out, they do feel a little empty and that was one of the things I decided to let be this time around.

Absolutely.
I actually just realized that it was another song that I did half and half. It’ll be coming out on a compilation at some point. I originally did that song in FL, but I just got frustrated with mixing the drums, so I resequenced the entire drum part in Renoise (what a mind-numbing 4 hours that was O_O). This one, however, is actually all FL. My bad.
The automation is all done with automation clips, taking heavy advantage of FL’s greatest feature IMO: per-point Bézier curve handles. I absolutely love FL’s automation. Nothing else comes close currently.
The drums are done entirely from sequenced one-shots including the glitching (mostly just retriggers and pitch automation in the MIDI clip) except the drill snare intro which was done by automating an arpeggiator on the snare.

Hmmm. For FM stuff, FM8’s hard to beat, but Oxe is free and similar in a lot of ways to Sytrus, though far less powerful. I’ve yet to really dive deep into it, but Oatmeal is phenomenal. I absolutely love it, it’s free, and there are oodles of skins and preset packs out there. SQ8L’s another free favorite of mine, though a little retro and not as easy to program. Helix is amazing, but not free. I have GUI issues with it, so I don’t use it much anymore, but eventually I’m gonna pick up the new version that has the bugs fixed and get back into it. Circle is a great modular synth, as is Massive. TAL’s synths are also awesome. In fact, everything TAL is awesome.

arf shortcuts. I used to play age of empires online and i got to the point where i was decent but needed to learn shortcuts like a madman to go past that plateau. This made me stop^^ (this and other stuff course). However music is far more important than strategy games so i will overcome that anti-shortcut lazyness!

When i told i hated leads i meant the typical sound that is used not the idea of having melodies of course. And i dont hate them i just really dont like them most of the times. Currently listening to Access to Araska and i like his lead sounds.

About melodies and chords, well notes in general, basslines aswell. I used to and still do listen a lot classical and to a lesser extent jazz. Those guys know how to handle notes. After that electronic music can be frustrating sometimes. And the other way round of course. Oh and between those two ways of approaching music, i cant listen to rock anymore. rock as a whole genre is pointless in my opinion.
But back on topic. Notes.
Of course we work alot on timbre, rhytm, and ryhtm on the timbre to compensate the necessarly weaker notes which are due to : _the loop-basedness of the music and _the lack of direct connection between our body and what makes the sound (and yes midi controllers but no. listen to cello or saxophone and lol at midi controllers). (We could also state that classical composers worked on notes so hard, and interpretes on human feel, to compensate the lack of soundshaping and rhytm)
Nevertheless many electronic producers do manages notes well, or at least they dont make them unlistenable
The way i see it we have two options either the harmonic progression loops with the rest either it frees from the drumloop.
The second option seems cool at first glance but it wouldnt fit
Hhmmm i just thought of Venetian Snares’ Rossz csillag alatt szuletett, on some tracks. But then it’s not loop-based music and the breaks are used as a “soloing” instrument. But it’s a possibilty
In the more likely first option, we’re stuck with an 4 bars maybe 8 bars harmonic pattern. I think that the key is ‘less is more’. The more clearly displayed the harmonies are (for instance bass + triads) the more they “trap themselves” in the loop and the more the listener will realize that yes indeed they are the same for a while this music is boring. In your song it’s just a bass no chords (im talking about the first part) but the line really relies on displaying the four bass notes of a common chord progression. Thus the upsetting feeling after a couple repetitions. I guess what saves it is the more harmonically neutral melodie above which makes a contrast, + the end of that melodie that on the contrary feel out of the chord so opposite contrast.
Often basslines just focus one one note. Strangely the simplier harmonic background doesnt lead to a greater feel of repetitivenness, because it catches less attention. And now other note stuff have more possibilites (or of course you can just spam ryhtms and filters on the bass sure thats fine too). You can do modal stuff for instance. I think modal fits electronic music much more than tonal
I also like chords but for reason i stated they are hard to manage in electronic music

[btw still listening to access to araska album and wtf real good shit that was a happy download]

no i meant the drum patterns. They are full of sounds, and well-placed sounds, and yet they feel somewhat empty. I cant understand why and i wish i could because i’m facing the same issue. Take an average drum and bass track it’s so much more full, of course if it’s average dnb you get bored quite soon, but still, much fuller. Maybe it comes from using sliced loops? Forgotten hihats and reverb tails and stuff? Or that compression thing i dont really understand (i do know what a compressor is and what it does but i dont know how to use it except the louderization in the final mix but thats not the point here)

Thank you, always interesting to see what way people choose to do a certain thing.

Thank you again. Will check that out

there are quite many examples of classical music made with Renoise. this is where trackers are unbeatable in my opinion: their flexibility. People have used trackers to make death metal, progressive rock, punk, hardcore dance and classical.

you can find an example of classical music made with Renoise here. I can ensure you that making this album has been an hell of a work, but also a fascinating voyage and I think that it would have been no easier with any other DAW (and probably impossible with some)

I haven’t read the whole thread but some of it. I just thought I would add that there are at least 2 amazing IDM/Braindance artists who use FL Studio

Wisp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87pZCUrmVbU

And The Flashbulb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q1C_iLKbq4

I don’t use FL-studio but have considered it when I found out that these artists used it.

I am a logic, native instruments (komplete) and beginner renoise user. I plan on learning renoise for tight per event automation and general awesomeness and then logic + NI for everything else.

AND as someone else said, there’s nothing stopping you from using FL AND renoise together :)

Love The Flashbulb, didn’t know he was a FLoops user.

I know (Hard) Angel uses it, which makes me suspect Eye-D probably does to some extent too at least, but I have no way to support that claim as gospel. He definitely also uses a lot of other stuff too…

just a source: http://www.image-line.com/documents/powerusers.php?entry_id=1311310004

but, hey. does it matter?!