Modulators: Multi-Format Envelope-Points

Could this pitch representation 0.704

be changed back extended to also show 200.000 cents?

shut up lal…uh i mean +1 :D :D

hehehe thank you ^_^


It could be handy to know what each point meant in some pitch language.

But wouldn’t the envelope device have to calculate all the ‘voltage’ (don’t know what to call it in renoise) going into it before the cent reading meant anything useful? I mean if it just dumbly displayed ‘200’ cents because your pointer is place so many pixels away from 0.

I think the current way is ok because when combining device you know what number to calculate with if you are trying to get a particular result from a combination of them. But, i don’t know.

What I think would be most useful is if the ‘modulation preview window’ (don’t know what to call that either, the big thing that shows the output of all your mods combined…) had fine markings in cents or decibels, or hertz [or as renoise is using % on cuttoff values, whatever way] as appropriate and whenever you moused over it showed your exact value in cents or decibels, or hertz as appropriate as well as possibly the corresponding little decimal number.

yeah, had the same concern

though, i must say i always hated when (because of the mudulation chaining or overall generality/building blocks) a synth offers me to control a pitch by a value that’s neither a key nor a cent. i alwas got these wrong sounding then, iirc sytrus does it. so i’d love to see cents. though, i don’t really know/care if

  1. then cents would be in every pitch module and then the frequency is at the chain-end calculated from some means of cent-modulations (that is, everything is not frequency (“voltage”) but key (60==c5 etc) OR
  2. if the whole chain would be a frequency (“voltage”) chain and then there was only the posibility to show an “end-result” somewhere not in the modulator-windows

i guess - just as you said - somewhere in that system must be the *2^(key/12) calcing, and depending where it is, some stuff is possible, some not. but i definitly like cents, because what’s voltages? or who knows frequencies? all you will always know is how the multiplying and value-curving (by pow( a, b ) in general) works. probably for the latter reason, they will let it as it is, and later offer a “show end-result-in-cents-feature” that processes the whole chain just for the sake of updating the gui, on and on. whatever they do, cents is what i can read, voltage is what you can multiply etc, dilemma!..

though: i want cents

edit: man, this forum and it’s smiley bugs… @ ‘b’ + ‘)’ ^_^/>/>
edit2: sorry for mixing up quantities and units:
frequency: hertz
interval: keys/cents

k and yeah… but now that I think about it, I think I just should have said:

Cents displayed would be most useful in the larger modulation preview window, (as grid with mouse over cross hair for exact values), more so than in the envelopes. You could reference that window to see where you would be in the cents sense at any point and after all calculations were done.

After fiddling around with this a bit, i agree: some way to know wtf you’re doing would be nice :lol: :lol: :lol:

+1 for cents representation in the pitch envelope,

…for those that missed it, there is an option to show changes in beats toggling the clock icon in the top right corner of the modulation device.

ok, yep, processing it by voltages is probably better (though i would find it interesting how the add-operations would be with cents, because with voltages i will never ever be able to create something else than boring lfo stuff, me personally)

And there’s another thing: the module is labeled “Pitch Envelope”. Pitch is for me something that has to do with cents, it must have been the same for whoever made the decision for 2.8.2. And “looking” else where is … not so cool, because how to enter values then? since the thing where it stands in cents is only a read-out, since it’s just a calculation result, no input value.

so, yadda yadda yadda, i think, at least both voltage and cents should be in the modules. only voltage would be disappointing.

whoops you already said it would only “referencing”, so… yep, but referencing … isn’t that complicated? it’s try and error

Let me try some solution:

Just add an additional cents input-box beside the voltage input-box, or replace the voltage input-box by a multi-format-input box (see the edit below). Why? Because for getting this present the non-voltage-guy-musician (e.g. me) will accept that the cents-value will only be correct as long as there isn’t another modulator that makes back-calculating senseless. So R2 behaviour is possible, since R2 did not have a modulator chain at all. And R3 behaviour just stays as it is. And it would be only a gui change, the values in the xrns format would stay in voltage format.

So, since at the Pitch Envelope, the calculation seems to be this:

new_frequency = old_frequency * (voltage + 1)

It’s possible - for reading it out as cents - to do just:

=> new_frequency / old_frequency = (voltage + 1)
=> yadda yadda
=> cents = log2( (voltage + 1) ) * 12 * 100

And when inputing a value, it’s just calced reverse with pow etc.


Another thing:

The tool-tip should then read “1.0 1200.000 cents”. Fl-studio for example uses such “multi formats” too.

And yet another thing:

There isn’t really enough space for the additional box. So, just use the voltage input-box for both voltage and cents, just like the tool-tip. So, the input-box should probably be displayed as voltage, since I can look up the cents on the tool-tip, or it should present both voltage and cents, if that fits.

And when inputting a value, a format detection is done, so that “1” will be taken as voltage 1, but when writing “1 cent” or better already when writing “1 c” the value will be converted from cents to voltage.

doesn’t that depend on which operator button you press? (+,-.*,/)

^^^ it’s a miracle that last sentence didn’t show up as some kind of totem-pole smiley :lol: :D

If it does, I guess the dev team finds the remaining formulas. I’m pretty sure that it’s possible to calc a correct pitch when no second operator comes.

lol… yeah… i btw suggested today they could try fix the board software. vv says the bug is still not found.


Anyway, I change my vote to Hz.

I don’t know how cents would work on the preview display now that i think about it (without setting a base line note freq). Maybe it’s a deficit in my musician guy knowledge. Actually, I recall my vote and abstain! :mellow:/>

[and i have been assuming that the mod devices, like analog modules, don’t know what note you are playing. i don’t know if that’s true or not, though]

Well there’s 100 cents per key (or “note”) and e.g. if the second modulator would be an adding one, I think you could e.g. use 100 cents in modulator 1 and another 100 in modulator 2, and then it should result in (maximum value, depending on the modulator type) 200 cents, so two halftones, so C-4 gets D-5. Though, when multiplying, it gets more difficult, but as long as display/input works also as in R2, i don’t mind.

The preview window stays exactly the same, because all voltages (or frequencies) stay the same too. It’s all just about *also *displaying the cents in the tool-tip, and *also accepting cents input in the box. Nothing else changes! :)

They most probably just have left out cents-display, because it’s definitly possible that you never ever can understand what the cents are gonna result in, when you use division-operators etc. But since everything (except simple input-box stuff) stays as it is, you should vote +1 for the cents. ;)

Oh, you mean Hz. Sorry, was still seeing voltages everywhere. I’m totally overtired. So, don’t vote for the cents, vote for Hz or all or so :D/>/>/>/>

Ok, well, really, Hertz? Then 3 input formats.

value => voltage  
value + "h" => hertz  
value + "hz" => hertz  
value + "hertz" => hertz  
value + "c" => cents  
value + "ct" => cents  
value + "cent" => cents  
value + "cents" => cents  

And a tool-tip with 3 formats is actually what FL Studio (really, it does) uses. So, what FL Studio users can read, renoisers can read definatly too.

Ok and I’m going to bed now, nn! ;)/>/>


Though, at least with the Pitch modulators, I don’t see how Hertz make sense, since:

Voltage: relative 1 in the Pitch Env means the freq gets doubled  
Cents: relative (will just map to the voltage)  
Hertz: absolute Hertz are how-many-per-second, I dont see how (without much other stuff) would be able to see or input Hz, am I wrong?..  

anyway, time to sleep

ps: i *am wrong. a unit is a unit, and one can arbitrarily chose if they want to see it as a value or a value change. though multiplying with hz? better not. adding hz? yeah, so when modulators connected by adding, hz could make sense just as adding cents does. still, i just want a pitch slide by a few cents, i think, that’s just common.

OK, I think I’m accidentally causing a derail because I’m really only talking about the preview window. If it worked like an oscilloscope you could view absolute pitch and hertz. But the mod preview does not seem to work this way. So, oh, well.