Native Arpeggiator Concept for Renoise

Ideas & suggestions
21

I honestly don’t see how this could work as a FX, as opposed to part of the instrument? You want to arpeggiate note data, right? Not an audio stream. Mmh…

A note in itself is an audio stream depending how you look…

You can write commands effects within each track for each note, in the Pattern Editor, they are influencing the whole audio stream in track. This could work as trigger the arpeggiator when any note sounds, or even select the notes you want for arpeggiate or not arpeggite…

Imagine the following:each track can play effects chains. True?It might also be able to play hundreds of notes, each with a different configuration arpeggiator. Could even be a function for arpeggiate entire track as an audio stream, or all notes separately.It would be like imagining that every note is a track.

You are surprised when Renoise is capable of carrying a multitude of effects per track, and can handle hundreds of tracks?You could treat each note as an entire track even within a group (this group would be equivalent to what we now mean by track).The arpeggiator effect, could work individually with each note, and other effects on the audio stream of the complete track.It would be like a substring within a string.Something like that.

Would simply define the arpeggiator to process the sound of each note, not the audio stream of the entire track.

Watch this: note, track, and group.The DSP effects in group affects all tracks within it. The DSP effects in track, affects all notes within it. The arpeggiator Effect affects each note separately (this arpeggiated).The grosso mode would note as a track with a single columnwith a single note.

Within a chain effects in tracks/groups,the arpeggiated notes would be processed before the other effects of the chain.

22

Wouldn’t that create a whole new class of FX devices?

To me it still seems to fit much better into the instrument itself.

23

Wouldn’t that create a whole new class of FX devices?

I’m not sure depends on how you understand.I do not know if it would be possible to add a note effect is processed before the effects chain audio stream of each track. It may possibly be added to the audio engine within the FX chain.And this need not be linked only to the instrument. It might work working well on the track or group. Each track on the instrument editor launches the notes. Would there be any problem to load the modified notes, before processing the effect chain track?I do not believe it.This does not have to be at odds with add an arpeggiator within each instrument (this is already possible to add VSTi arpeggiator).But the advantage of using arpeggiator within the track or group.

To me it still seems to fit much better into the instrument itself.

You fits because you see everywhere…

This arpeggiator effect per track/group can launch all arpeggiated notes, of all instruments at once in te track/group (instruments that do not have their own FX chain).Arpeggiator dedicated to the track / group, not the instrument.At least make clear the concept.

There are people who yet confuse a “VST effect” (FX chain) with “VSTi instrument” (It is influencing the modulation, not in FX chain) and this does not help to open the mind and seek effective and useful tools.Create a tool (arpeggiator effect) that influences certain notes in a track could be a general axis. No matter which box controls mess. The important thing is the basis of how it worksthe arpeggiator effectper track/group (or a new future effect).It can be a good starting point. Example steps:

  1. Experiment with different notes of various instruments into a single track with the Pattern Editor.
  2. Add an arpeggiator effect in the track.
  3. Select notes or not.
  4. Result, all the notes of all the instruments of the track are arpeggiated (or selected notes).
  5. Add other arpeggiator effect in the track.
  6. Select notes or not and play.
  7. Result, all the notes (or selected) of all the instruments of the track are arpeggiatedwith two arpeggiators different
  8. Play with the notes and the arpeggiator
  9. Experiment with arpeggiators effects
  10. Result: the chances are overwhelming, especially for experimental and creative music.
  11. You add more effects, Delay, Flanger, EQ, etc …

Maybe to implement it, it would be as easy as adding the effect always in the first position of the string,although the order does not matter, if in the end it works well under the hood. The arpeggiator effect does not always act along the track. It is activated and turns off when a note sounds, or more notes, commanded the length of notes, not the length of the track (the effect starts again every time it rings a note),but with full control on the track, to compose.It has more advantages than a simple arpeggiator instrument.

24

Huge +1 to an arpeggiation mode for instrument phrases!

Phrases are almost there already. I already use them for a limited form of arpeggiation. And even limited as it is, I still prefer phrase arpeggiation to the flaky reproduceability of all the VSTi Arpeggiators I’ve tried (Cthulhu, Blue, Cream…I’ve just noticed a lot of hung notes and unpredictable behavior from plugin arpeggiators, regardless of the host DAW, to the point where every serious producer using these plugins inevitably eventually prints the generated MIDI back to a track, sacrificing flexibility for reliability. Which is a shame.)

danoise is right, though, that phrases currently lack a level of abstraction that a true arpeggiator provides. You want to be able to refer to the nth note of a held chord, not a specific note baked into the phrase.

IMO, too, this belongs in the instrument. Among other reasons listed above, there’s precedent, seeing as there are already multiple phrase triggering modes. Maybe C4 (or a definable root) triggers Note 00 of the held chord, C#4 triggers Note 01 (or Note 00 +1 octave if there’s only one note held, etc.).

IMO, the phrase editor has the potential to annihilate all other VSTi arpeggiators. People would buy Redux for that alone.

Edit: Another plus is you wouldn’t have to use some VSTi’s shitty point-and-click interface. You could use the tracker interface that’s already burned into your skull and fingers.

Edit2: Phrase arpeggiation could be based on column, too. Like a note in column 0 triggers the first note of a held chord. A note in column 1, the second. That would leave the pitch of the phrase’s note free for transposition relative to a defined root (say, C4). So a C4 in column 0 triggers the first note, untransposed. A C3 in column 0 triggers the first note, but an octave down. A C5 in column 1 triggers the second note of the chord, an octave up. Etc.

Edit3: I should add that when I say “held chord” I mean notes in the pattern editor. The instrument would have a fourth phrase mode: Arp (in addition to Off, Program and Keymap). The 0Z command would select the phrase in Arp mode. One or multiple held notes in the pattern editor would be sorted somehow (lowest to highest, oldest to newest, etc.) and Arped on by the current phrase, with the phrase’s columns embodying the sorted set of notes from the pattern editor. No new interface needed!

25

I don’t mean to hijak this thread with a completely different arpeggiator concept. I’ll start a new thread if necessary.

My complete conception of a Phrase Editor arpeggiation mode got lost in the edits up there. But I think it’s not impossible that this is the Right Thing, so I’ll try to lay it out from the beginning, as succinctly as possible:

  1. The Phrase Editor gets a new mode: “Arp Mode”, in addition to “Off”, “Program” and “Keymap”.
  2. Phrases in Arp Mode would be selected in the Pattern Editor with the 0Z command.
  3. Chords of 1 or more notes would be laid out in the Pattern Editor.
  4. All an instrument’s active notes would be sorted according to some criteria, like (probably) “lowest to highest pitch”, or “oldest to newest”. This could be an option or not.
  5. Each note from the sorted list would be assigned to a column in the phrase editor, left to right. This is the crucial “abstraction” necessary achieve the full power of a modern arpeggiator.
  6. If there are fewer active notes than columns in the phrase, the sorted list just repeats until the columns are full, possibly at successive octaves up. If there are more active notes than columns, the remainder just don’t get assigned.
  7. Every arrival of a Note On or Note Off from the Pattern Editor would trigger a resorting, and the newly sorted list would be reassigned to the columns of the phrase. This should not retrigger the phrase, though, unless there were previously no active notes. Much of the beauty of arps is the way the riff continues unabated as long as at least one note remains active, morphing as the underlying chords change.
  8. Notes in the phrase’s columns would emit the note assigned to them from the sorted list of active notes in the Pattern Editor.
  9. But these notes are transposed by the phrase’s root note. So if a D-4 from the Pattern Editor is currently assigned to the first column of the phrase, and the phrase’s root note is C-4, and you put a C-4 in that column, the phrase will emit the D-4, untransposed. If you put a C-3 in that column it will emit a D-3 (transpose the D-4 down an octave). A G-5 would emit an A-5, and so on. Even so, most of the notes in your phrases will probably be C-4’s, as it’s the column that selects the underlying note.
  10. Phrase commands in the Pattern Editor continue to work as you’d expect. Also velocity scaling by notes in the Phrase Editor. And changing the phrase’s LPB easily generates interesting polyrhythms against the main beat. We don’t have “free rate” in the Phrase Editor yet (for traditional continuous Arp speedup and slowdown), but that may change (and I personally won’t miss it – was never much into that sound).
  11. Retriggering may need some options. The 0S command should obviously trigger it from that offset, but 0Z by default should probably offset into the new phrase at the old index modulo the new phrase length, assuming there are still notes active in the Pattern Editor.
  12. And best of all, no new interface necessary! The Arp Mode bar would probably look almost exactly like the Program Mode bar. And the rest is just the standard phrase editor.
26

Hi thunk

It seems a radically different concept to this topic.I think it would be great to open a new thread with this idea.Let’s see what people think.You could attach screenshots of your idea, to see how it works.

Just to clarify one thing.The arpeggiator effect I pose for the track or group has nothing to do with Phrases Editor.You can create a phrasein the Pattern Editor also.

I mean the Arpeggiator Effect always influences the duration of a note. Modifies the note along its entire length.Just a note.One note, has a beginning, a end, and a duration.

This means that if there are several notes,a phrase with 10 notes,the arpeggiator starts and off 10 times. One for each note.I mention this becausenot to be confused with a possible effect with the reproduction of the same noterepeatedly, like a submachine gun.

Speaking to the beast, a example: if the Pattern Editor you put 100 notes in a column of the same pattern, Renoise play 100 times the arpeggiator effect, 1 for each note.If you add more Arpeggiators Effects associated with other notes, you can have as many Arpeggiator Effects by notes.

You can create several phrases to the Phrase Editor, several pure notes that make up a melody.All phrases will be reproduced in the Pattern Editor. The Arpeggiator Effect works there, in the Pattern Editor.What I mean is that a phrase is not an arpeggiatorsince the arpeggiator works with a single note (can change the volume, panning, pitch, speed, as if they were slices of loaf of bread.). He cut in pieces the note. In short, it is as if you modulate the note with a sequence of the same rate of 16 sections

I mention this so that people do not confuse a phrase of notes, with an arpeggiator. A exampleto understand:

Pattern Editor or Phrase Editor (it’s the same)

00 A-4 07

01 …

02 …

03

04 OFF

05 …

06 …

…

…

63 …

In the note, the Arpeggiator Effect could handle 16 sectionswithin 4 rows,16 slices, or more or less, depending on the configuration of the Arpeggiator Effect. The note A-4 from the instrument "07"starts at the beginning of the “row 00”,and ends at the end of “row 03”,with length of 4 rows.The Arpeggiator Effect acts during these 4 rows. Set faster if you want.

Other example:

Pattern Editor or Phrase Editor (it’s the same)

00 A-4 07 …

01 … …

02 … …

03 … G#4 21

04 OFF …

05 … …

06 … OFF

07 … …

08 C-4 04 …

09 … …

10… …

11… …

12… …

13… …

14 … …

15 OFF …

17 … …

…

…

63 … …

The first note duration 4 rows (the Arpeggiator lasting 4 rows).

The second note duration 3 rows (the Arpeggiator lasting 3 rows).

The last note duration 7 rows (the Arpeggiator lasting 7 rows).

The Arpeggiator Effect starts 3 times…

It is the same arpeggiator settings, with different durations,influencing different notes of different instruments.

Use the delay values in track to adjust the start and end of the notes. You can use the other effect values to change over the arpeggiator, but the Arpeggiator Effect is playing already in every note in a previous layer.

27

Each note from the sorted list would be assigned to a column in the phrase editor, left to right. This is the crucial “abstraction” necessary achieve the full power of a modern arpeggiator

That seems like imposing a certain workflow onto people. Which wouldn’t be a problem if it was obvious, but I’m afraid that isn’t really the case here. Personally, I would look for an arpeggiator that could simply work with the phrases I have already programmed, not one that would require me to refashion everything. Perhaps you could give a few concrete examples - I feel you have something specific in mind :)(and yes, we can totally split this topic if you guys want me to)

Having “special meaning” for note columns is an interesting concept. There has been some talk about how more “musical intelligence” could be added to Renoise (think chord progressions, circle of fifths and so forth), and I think there is some potential in using columns for this exact purpose. But I digress…

What I mean is that a phrase is not an arpeggiatorsince the arpeggiator works with a single note (can change the volume, panning, pitch, speed, as if they were slices of loaf of bread.).

But in Renoise, phrases are conceptually treated as if they were a single note.

Technically speaking, it might be full of notes, but from the outside, you’re treating it as a single note, or a sample even (after all, you can bend the pitch, use offset triggering and so on). It really is the perfect candidate for an arpeggiator.

28

I wish for an arpeggiator that repitches the audio that goes into it and not one that just trigger notes. A simple automatable resampler would really do the trick for me, but i wouldn’t mind if it did arps as well. Not shure how it would handle pitching upwards though…maybe some retrigger feature?

29

But in Renoise, phrases are conceptually treated as if they were a single note…

Exact! That’s what I mean.If Renoise be able to add effects by note in Pattern Editor, it would be beastly.It is something that enhance the tracker for future.

  • Write the phrases in the Pattern Editor, use the Arpeggiator Effect and enjoytheir possibilitiesin every note…
  • Write the prahses in the Phrase Editor,to shorten and simplify.If you use the Arpeggiator Effect on the Pattern Editor, will not use the Phrase Editor, and if it does, the better, because you have more options.Use both to combine.Imagine several notes treated as a single note, and above arpeggiated in a layer.The more we talk about this, the more possibilities there.

The potential is in the Pattern Editor.Use the Phrase Editor to create phrases, no problem!

30

I wish for an arpeggiator that repitches the audio that goes into it and not one that just trigger notes.

I do not know if I understand correctly. this does not get with VSTi what includes arpeggiator own? Add a XRNI in Instrument Box, add a VSTI arpeggiator in the same slot, configure the VSTi.All the instrument is played arpeggiated.

What I propose is different from a conventional arpeggiator VSTi.This is to take advantage of the tracker, as it is player notes.Add effects to each note independently directly by track or group would bestial, is an arpeggiator, or any new future effect…

The problem when schedulingunder the hoodseems to be where to put the effect layer. If applied on the complete track, or if applied on the note individually within the track, something that I think is feasible and revolutionary…They could combine the two functions in the same arpeggiator, Wow!!! The summary would be this: a simple tool to handle but extremely powerful.Conceptually, there should be no barrier.basically it is to apply an effect to an audio section, which Renoise and continually makes on each track. Something like a track to convert a single note, able to withstand at least a dedicated effect, such as these arpeggiatorof screenshots.

31

I do not know if I understand correctly. this does not get with VSTi what includes arpeggiator own? Add a XRNI in Instrument Box, add a VSTI arpeggiator in the same slot, configure the VSTi.All the instrument is played arpeggiated.

I thought they worked with MIDI or something to arpeggiate notes, but i may have mistaken how those work and i have never tested one either, so i don’t know.

32

Hiya danoise,

Thanks for your input!

That seems like imposing a certain workflow onto people. Which wouldn’t be a problem if it was obvious, but I’m afraid that isn’t really the case here.

You’re right that this is definitely a non-obvious departure from the way phrases currently work. That could present a problem, and would steepen the (already fairly steep) learning curve.

But this is Renoise. Renoise users are smart :slight_smile: You can’t dive head first into a DAW that looks like a fever-dream mashup of Excel and The Matrix display (“all I see is blonde, brunette…”) without a certain intellectual brashness and confidence :slight_smile:

Personally, I would look for an arpeggiator that could simply work with the phrases I have already programmed, not one that would require me to refashion everything.

I totally understand your desire. But as I understand it, it would require building a whole new Arp sequencer interface on top of the Phrase editor – an abstraction on top of the phrase editor, which is itself an abstraction on top of the pattern editor.

And what would the ideal Arp sequencer look like? Well, in our case, a tracker of course! So you’d have a tracker-style Arp sequencer, sitting on top of the current tracker-style Phrase Editor, sitting on top of the tracker-style Pattern Editor.

To my understanding, this is at least as complex as my columns proposal, just in a different way. It maintains consistency in the Phrase Editor at the expense of requiring a whole new thingy sitting on top of the phrase editor (and a lot more coding).

Here’s the thing: Modern Arp VSTi’s (like Cthulhu, Blue and Cream), are essentially step sequencers sitting on top of a held chord. They are a far cry from (and vastly more powerful than) the old “Up, Down or Up/Down” Arp style.

People want (and I mean really want, seeing the recent surge in popularity of these intelligent Arp VSTi’s, and the inclusion of MIDI routing in Renoise), an abstract sequencer, sitting on top of whatever chord they hold.

It’s just that up until now, people have had to deal with some Arp VSTi’s limited and fiddly interface and unpredictable behavior, when what they really want is the full power of their host sequencer, just abstracted, so that the “notes” in the sequence aren’t actual notes, but pointers to the nth note of the underlying chord.

There is no way around the need for this abstraction. Either you build it directly into Arp Mode (as I propose), or you build an Arp Sequencer on top of the Phrase Editor (that probably looks suspiciously like … the Phrase Editor).

I’d honestly be Ok with it either way, as long as it includes this ability to “sequence by pointer”.

But the beauty of my proposal is that, visually at least, nothing changes. Renoise could have this functionality already, and the only way you’d know is there’d be an “Arp” button below the “Keymap” button in the Instrument Editor.

I could post mockups and screenshots, but there’d literally be nothing new to see. Just a phrase with a few columns, pepperedsparsely with (mostly) C-4’s.

And I do believe it maintains the spirit, if not the specific behavior, of the Phrase Editor. We’d still be programming “phrases” in Arp Mode, they’d just be phrases of column-based pointers to a sorted list of active notes in the Pattern Editor.

Edit: And it does enable the full range of “musical intelligence” you mentioned, while keeping the phrase editor relatively “dumb”, and leaving the composition up to the user.

If you want to play a note a fifth up from the note currently assigned to a column, enter a G-4 there instead of a C-4.

When programming a polyphonic instrument, you could have sustained low notes (A C-3 and a G-4 at the top of the first two columns, respectively, comes to mind), while sequencing a note-y riff in the rightmost columns, all perfectly musical, as they’re based on notes from the underlying chords in the Pattern Editor.

I’m telling you, there’s really nothing else like it out there. The potential for extremely musical “happy accidents” is mind-boggling.

33

In fact, if it was possible to route MIDI out on any instrument (rather than just instuments containing VSTi’s, you could use one instrument as a chord generator (with phrases in Program or Keymap mode), and route its MIDI out to another instrument in Arp mode.

That way, phrase triggering in Pattern Editor remains the same. You’d enter a note in the Pattern Editor. It would trigger a phrase containing a chord. (All standard up to this point). But that instrument’s MIDI would then be routed out to another instrument in Arp mode, that would take the chord and Arp on it according to my proposal above.

34

One other thing: This may sound complicated, but software specifications always sound complicated. All this “sorting” and “assigning of notes to columns” (or rows in the case of all the arp VSTi’s), is precisely what’s going on under the hood of all the arp VSTi’s, and users are blissfully unaware.

They play chords, sequence patterns in the VSTi’s step sequencer, pretty sounds come out, and that’s all they know or care about.

I’m reasonably sure the same would be true in this case. Users would program chords in the Pattern Editor. Plonk some C-4’s around in the Phrase Editor Arp Mode, and pretty sounds would come out. Their fingers would understand before their brains were fully wrapped around the underpinnings.

35

Thunk, Ican not understand your concept.It is true that all sounds very complicated, as you say.Maybe you should open a new topic and try to explain and verse, so that everyone understands.Most people do not have the ability to think abstractly, needs images, sound samples, visual examples and clear explanations.Furthermore, if we mix things, the essence of the topic is lost.If above need to think in English when your native language is another, even worse ^_^.

36

My apologies, and no worries.

If a mod is willing to tease this thread apart into two separate threads, that’d be great. Otherwise, I’ll copy and paste the main bits over to a separate thread, later on.

Thanks Raul

37

My apologies, and no worries…

^_^do not apologize!I make my points because you are explaining many things that could be worth to open a new thread.Nothing else.These forums are sometimes a mess.Sometimes in the same thread many things are mixed, and ends in anything because of that.It’s great to discuss all these things, especially if the subject is about arpeggiators…You can write anywhere, of course!

38

I’ve been testing with the Automation Editor and arpeggiator parameters (0Axy) in Pattern Editor, to create this effect quickly to the Pattern Editor to see what is best solution. The result is very slow and repetitive. Sometimes with a lot of parameters to solve the same repeat again and again.If you use instruments of Renoise XRNI (samples) you will find complicated create arpeggiator.

Can someone show me an example of how arpeggiate with XRNI instruments?

I’ve been looking at Renoise forums on this subject, and find nothing…

39

If you use instruments of Renoise XRNI (samples) you will find complicated create arpeggiator

Well, Renoise doesn’t have a native arpeggiator - that would be the whole point of this topic.

But if you load up some external MIDI instrument and point it to your XRNI - voila!! You’re not limited to plugins here.

40

Thing like this you can say about all things that your DAW don’t have… Don’t have eq with big plugin window? - buy it! Don’t have proper arp plugin - buy it! DEV’s politic like this is scaring me because words like this sounding ala: “Man this is not our problems” :confused: