No I didn’t really mean to restrict editing to one track. I see why you got that impression tho. It sometimes says clip when I meant clips, or perhaps track… confusing.
I was just thinking about the procedure when editing a pattern normally:
Notes are recorded to selected track when using master keyboard, except when the instrument output is assigned to a specific track I guess. Automation is recorded to whatever track the device is located. Any edited clips would then copied back to the original position.
Maybe it’s just the way I usually work, but I don’t see when it would be necessary to arm just a few specific tracks?
Well, anything could change the track or pattern. Press shift+F1/F2, and you have transposed the pattern. Use the pattern editor to enter notes.
Or you might have some other tool running that modify the pattern data on the fly, so it’s anything really.
But I just realized that copying back needs to be done only when switching clip or exiting record-mode. Too much copying would become a big CPU hog in an already quite intensive application…
Sounds sensible. I’m kinda happy my old laptop crashed, forced me to get a new one that can run GridPie.
I haven’t tried out polyrhythmic clips in Duplex:GridPie yet, but how would that work out with a recording mode? Anything edited in a shorter clip would have to be duplicated to all the “pasted parts”, right?
Hey dby, you’re right that a certain intelligence is needed in such a case. So, if we have a 16 line pattern and a 64 line pattern, it’s easy enough to imagine that any change to the 64-line pattern copy is copied back. But what if e.g. lines 24 and 48 in the 16-line pattern are modified “at the same time” ?
It’s an impossible scenario, really, as nothing is ever changed at the same time. Even when you’re pasting stuff to a pattern, the Renoise API will detect the change line-by-line. But looking away from the technical implementation, this is how I would intuitively understand it if I had pasted a note column into the pattern which contained a note at line 24 and 48…
I guess the best solution would be to take the first occurrence (line 24, which would be located in the second expended segment, between lines 17 and 32), and copy that change to the other segments, in real-time. And then, once you exit recording mode or change clip, the first segment (lines 1-16) are copied back to the source. This means loosing the second note at line 48, but that’s the nature of a compromise.
I guess it’s OK - the usage scenario in which changes occur “simultaneously” is a bit theoretical to begin with?
Also, maybe pattern follow should be optional in Rec-mode? That way you could also move around the cursor and edit the pattern while playing without exiting Grid Pie.
Another thing to consider: What happens if a track is armed but no clip is playing? Could you still edit that empty clip? Would it be “copied back” to an empty slot?
We already include an option to follow the pattern or not - the reasoning being this is two people jamming: one is programming notes & stuff in Renoise, the other is copying and arranging stuff on the fly using Grid Pie. It’s sort of a recording mode already, and IMHO things would get too complex if something started to override the existing options in specific situations? But nevertheless, it’s the first kind of recording mode I considered - but I like your approach even better.
Absolutely, there really isn’t such a thing as an empty clip - it’s always pointing to somewhere within your song. If this wasn’t possible, you couldn’t create a Grid Pie’d arrangement from scratch (if someone dared to do such a thing)
I only notice it wasn’t possible to enable pattern follow when running GridPie, it jumps to the play position and switches off again.
Didn’t even try to edit the way you describe as I always like to hear the changes I make. But I see how it could be useful in some situations now that I tried it. Anyways, that method would still be possible to use even after a Rec-mode being implemented?
No I missed those suggestions. No 1 would be really nice. The other two went a bit over my head
No, it’s surely because I failed to describe them properly “Keep the beat” is basically about the fact that Renoise can/will cause a “jump” when you switch between patterns of varying lengths. Try switching between a very short, and a very long pattern? I’m simply proposing a method for ensuring that this doesn’t happen (after all, G.P. is a live performance tool).
PS: I forgot to add “scheduled clips” to the list of proposed features
Trying out GridPie in Duplex 0.98b13 with my Monome40h. Running SerialOSC through Pages 0.2.2a33.
I can’t trigger any of the Mutes from my Monome, works when I click the GUI.
And also navigation jumps twice as far as it’s supposed to, ie 12 instead of 6 horisontally and 14 instead of 7 vertically. Very easy to work around, so no biggie.
Hmm…works perfectly here, both mutes and navigation - I’m not using Pages though…are the other application working as they’re supposed to (recorder et al.) ?
Again, strange. Sounds like messages are being doubled somehow, but I can’t replicate it here.
As a workaround, you can simply set the vertical and horizontal page size to whatever you like (well, half of that .
Yes. Mutes work fine when I use monomeserial directly. Pattern position in the far right column doesn’t work. No LED feedback and no reaction to button presses. Works in GUI.
I’ll report the Mutes problem to Phortran who makes Pages.
When I run SerialOSC through Pages the LED feedback of Pattern position does work, but not button presses.
I have been tinkering with a couple of new features in Grid Pie, “running start” and “keep the beat”.
While I was at it, I discovered a bug in the polyrhythmic pattern-length computation, which got fixed too
So, what is running start? It’s simply a way to provide a smooth transition into Grid Pie’d mode -
Here’s how it works:
Load a song and when you hear something you’d like to remix, you just…
Enable Grid Pie - “running start” will make Grid Pie import the current pattern (the playing pattern, if the sequencer is running).
Mess around with the song, have some fun
Disable Grid Pie - the sequencer will resume playback from where you left.
“Keep the beat” is a bit harder to describe, but it essentially makes playback more solid, as you switch between/combine patterns of different lengths.
This should make Grid Pie an even more performance-friendly tool
I’ve played quite a bit with duplex/gridpie on launchpad, and it’s really great. But it still feels like an add-on. For instance composing with is strange, you’re hearing things (“clips”) in a linear fashion, although they’re supposed to be mixed with gridpie.
How about automatically copying changes made to gridpies pattern back to the origins? This way I could compose in gridpies pattern while gridpie is running. I’m not sure how gridpie handles a step sequencer tool, but this way you could really compose and/or jam live with duplex, a step sequencer and a keyboard.
What do you think?
BTW: Danoise, are you from Denmark too? I’m in Ølstykke 30km NW of Copenhagen
@atte: yes, I have been thinking about that too. I think that Grid Pie will always be ‘a somewhat’ separate workflow but ‘performance-friendly’ shouldn’t rule out ‘great for composing’
The simplest approach I can of, when talking about preserving results of a grid pie session, is to have the ability to save/create pattern on-the-fly. Better not to save result back to the original song, but keep it in the special last part of the song, so you’re not changing the stuff you’re using to create stuff with in the first place (insert confused smiley here
Exactly, esp if things are configurable via settings.
I think what you’re talking about could be useful indeed, but I also think there are (more, for me) times when writing back is the way to go. how about putting stuff like this in settings menu?
I imagine the following to be nice-to-haves:
Automatically write changes to the gridpie pattern back to originating patterns (My suggestion).
Having shortcut (keyboard or launchpad) to write changes back to originating patterns “now”
Having shortcut for “clone current gridpie pattern to new song pattern” (I guess that’s what you suggest, right?)
I’m still to really, really explore gridpie, so part of the reason I’m suggesting this, it that somehow I’m reluctant or scared of managing more than 8x7 matrix through gridpie. So I imagine setting up a 8x7 grid, some slots prefilled, some left blank, then reworking, constructing, realtime recording into those patterns in performance + navigating through them with gridpie. Also you loose some of the instant-ness if you have to scroll before triggering a clip. And I haven’t used Ableton Live, so I’m mostly trying to feel my way around this. Could you (or others) comment on that; running (much) more than 8x7 matrix through gridpie? Actually I would find it quite interesting how people are approaching the gridpie in the first place!!!
Nå, men så hej Ku være coolt med et dansk real-life renoise community at hooke op med, men vi to er for langt fra hinanden til at det gir mening, ved dog ikke om der er andre danskere her…
Translation: Hi + bla bla regarding other danish renoisers
The thing I find confusing about (1 and 2) is that what you’re listening to is the result of 2,3,4, well - any number of patterns. Should it then modify all those patterns? After all, it’s a rare case that you only have a single originating pattern.
Also, if some grid pie combination sounded really cool, as a result of updating the source pattern(s) everything could easily sound different as a result.
I don’t know…I guess I tend to leave the analytical mode behind when using grid pie, and would like some kind of insurance that I’m not going to screw everything up
Yep, preferably creating those patterns after the temporary GRID PIE pattern so they are not included in the pattern/track navigation, but rather, exist in their own separate song space. And again, because we don’t have an obvious position within the song where we can add those patterns I think it’s best to simply stick them at the end of the song
+1, there has been praise but little detailed feedback. Bring it on!
From my perspective, I can tell you as much as that I implemented the “running start” feature to make it possible to switch an existing song into Grid Pie’d mode at the flick of a switch. I have used it for multiple remix projects, and find that it’s a hugely inspiring - although also a bit chaotic - way to work. I’ve wanted to try a more planned approach like you’re suggesting, using very small (poly)rhythmic snippets of varying lengths (say, patterns of 6, 9 lines), but somehow I always end up doing some other and more linear stuff instead.
Jow, vi er skam nogle stykker. Aalborg, Nørrebronx, og jeg kender også et par stykker her i byen
Det fede er, at vi kun er en lille håndfuld men vi spænder totalt vidt og bredt i vores stilarter
DK renoise community kunne også være sjovt, men som du siger er afstanden altid en forhindring. Og dette board rykker jo, uanset sproget
Well, I imagine gridpie keeping track of what currently in the GRID_PIE pattern. Like track1 is playing pat0, track2 is playing pat5 and so on. This way you could build the building blocks on stage! I know renoise is not Ableton Live, but the more real-time work-flow we can get, the better, IMHO.
I don’t get the “stick at the end of the song” idea. I mean I know what you mean, but I can’t see the practical use of it (I can, see below, but I’m not sure it’s the same as your idea about it). I would really like to turn gridpie on and stay there (on stage, even if the stage is at home). What happens to those patterns? Are they supposed to be building blocks for further arrangement after I turn off gridpie again? That would make sense, but that’s like not taking full advantage of what gridpie could become. I would like it to work live, live, live
From what I understand Ableton Live has a way of “recording” your clip launches. This would be really great too, start with your building blocks, go crazy on your launchpad + tweak knobs on your BCR2000 and have the whole session recorded possibly for further tweaking. This could be the way to use the after-GRID_PIE-pattern. They could contain the notes + envelopes to reflect exactly how it sounded when you tweaked away live.
How about implementing some of these ideas, and having the behavior configurable, so people could try them out? We’re not forced to have gridpie work the way some big, corporate company thinks is best, but potentially we can experiment with different work-flows and get something that is really working for everybody
Klart, but it could be really cool to hook up and share stuff, work flows, ideas, code tools, maybe even end up with collaboration projects. I’m from Aalborg originally (just came back 10mins ago after visiting my parents), really cool to know that there are renoisers there, too
“Keep the beat” is basically about the fact that Renoise can/will cause a “jump” when you switch between patterns of varying lengths. Try switching between a very short, and a very long pattern? I’m simply proposing a method for ensuring that this doesn’t happen (after all, G.P. is a live performance tool).
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