Playback: Default Mode Non-looping Patterns - Unless Wanted..

One of the most mindnumbing things when working with a sequencer is to put the CYCLE mode on… You get lost somewhere with the loop. And wtf I just noticed that you can’t even turn this off on renoise??? Is this really so? Please save me someone and say it can be turned off? :wacko: :wacko:

People who for some reason need to go into that loop phase can use the loop mode in the sequencer for that, and also there is the pattern playback as in FT2 (by pressing alt). I think It would be better for the overall creativity to make it off by default… Now it forces everyone to loop their songs and that leads to erm… really monotonic tracks and music :):slight_smile:

what you mean with loop ? if you mean pattern-loop then try pressing alt-gr (is it named that way on english keyboards ? the key right next to space) and ctrl, one plays a pattern in loop mode, one starts playing the song normal (not pattern-looped).

if you mean blocklooping, you can start/stop that with the numpad-enter key.

also note that left-shift is a modifier for those keys, switching from pattern-loop to normal play without restarting the pattern and vice-versa.

erm

If you press play then Renoise is in Cycle mode already. The song doesn’t stop ever when the content of the song stops… I think no one should use cycle mode even on purpose, but the fact that it is on by default is quite baaad in my opinion. It should be off by default to give a better artistic headspace for everyone… :)

and yeah sorry I’ll try to be more clear in the future… I usually post in the middle of testing stuff and making a test song so maybe I should stop that :):slight_smile: :)):

Erm, this is a very personal thing of course, and I am not sure if there is a correct way of doing it.

An option is always good, and will allow the user to decide.

somehow I don’t really understand the problem here …

if you want your song to stop at the end for the listener just add a F100-patterncommand at the end and the song will stop playing ?!

Hmm…

It should totally OFF by default because this is one of the worst possible features on a sequencer.

No other softwares do that or you at least have the possibility to choose wheter you want to cycle what you are composing.

Many people I’ve talked to agree this being the number one reason for them ever finish their songs. Just put the cycle on and you have quite surely ruined the track…

I recently even came across a quote by liam howlett who has to my surprise thought about the same thing 10 years earlier.

LIAM HOWLETT (PRODIGY) ON CUBASE - and the CYCLE mode…

"I did Jilted Generation with the W30 sequencer, but afterwards, I thought I could do with getting a few more tracks. Cubase has helped my writing quite a bit. I was so stuck with the W30 I never really thought I’d need more than 16 tracks. Also, I was worried I’d change the way I wrote. Now, I try and write the same way I used to on the W30; for example, I try not to copy too many things. I might write something and do an 8-bar section instead of one bar repeated, which is what most people in dance music do. The worst thing is getting stuck in an 8-bar loop – you stick Cycle on, come up with something good, and it goes round and round. Then you get stuck into a groove, and it takes you ages to actually write the song. I try not to use Cycle too much – just until I get a few ideas, then I turn it off. "

I just want the dev team to see that this is just as important and acute as any other bug-fix currently. (I think this is just as important as PDC.)

Maybe there could be a tickbox in the preferences for us purists? :)

We all work in different ways mate.

If you are that bothered, just stick a blank pattern at the end of your song and set it to loop in the pattern arranger.

As for looping patterns inside the song, well that is your choice and is set to OFF as default. When one pattern ends, the pattern arranger moves onto the next pattern.

It is not as important as PDC as it doesnt make a feature misbehave. It is just your personal preference for compsing, and is not a bug. It is a feature of tracking software.

[quote="#<0x0000562850b8d778>, post:6, topic:20238"]

It should totally OFF by default because this is one of the worst possible features on a sequencer.
[/quote]



Welcome to trackers, it’s been ON for twenty years.



If you want to use cubase, by all means, do.



PS: F100 or an extra looping empty pattern, seriously.</0x0000562850b8d778>

Wow this is such a non-issue. Add an empty pattern at the bottom, set it to loop. Personally i tend to make the last pattern huge, like 300 ticks+ (i usually have patterns of 64) to let the thing fade to a complete stop before the cycle.

Double thumbs up to bantai. Featuritis ftl!

I still don’t really get it, does he mean for playing or for editing purposes ? I can’t think of any application that plays the selection in the timeline and then just stops, all applications I know either loop or play to the end ?! Or am I missing something here ?

He is copying the bizarre style of retro-feature desire from JSwift/Warren as far as I can see. He is probably JSwift/Warren in duplication.

Best ignore his odd demands. They seem strange because they are strange.

Heh… Sorry but I think even you would benefit of this even though you do not understand it. Just because some request is weird in your opinion does not mean that it does not have any grounds to it. Does it?

I’ll put this even weirder for you -> there are even scientifical studies on this that a repeated sound is processed inside a persons brain. When a repeated sound enters the ears the brain creates a similar wave to that being repeated with just 180 degrees of difference to the original. That then “clears” that repeated wave coming from the ears so that the repeated sound is no more heard. That’s the scientifical reason why repeted sounds tend to “vanish” into the backround and we do not react to them… :):slight_smile:

And that is true that this has been even studied…

The fact that everyone has been looping in trackers for 15 years does not mean that it’s any good for composing.

How many people making music have you actually discussed this with? Also have you tried to make music on any other software? Just asking because it seems that you’ve not experienced the freedom on not looping your song all the time…

Btw. the posting above was not meant to hype cubase - Just the opposite.

Its not about the song stopping… It’s about the content stopping to play when the content in the song stops…

Put this in another way:

“Any other software stops playing the content of the song when the content stops.”

Renoise just (and only) loops even if you do not want it to…

Hi, I thought of this myself already too… I think I’m going to do that even as it is quite bulky workaround. Not yet made the total leap to renoise though :) But if the time comes I guess a template like this has got to be made…

It looks like some people do not care about how a program feels and that actually seems quite weird for me. :) I just felt like expressing this here because it would allow better artistical flow of ideas to the composers… :) I can make the template, but those who are stuck with the looping without knowing it cannot get out of it because the software does not allow them to…

Just trying to help here.

And incase any developer is interested:

I think in renoise the best way to allow this would be to stop the pattern (and not play infinetely into the future as other programs do). That’s because renoise is way different than other programs and in renoise you do not add stuff into the timeline, you actually create the timeline. Or perhaps that could be changed too… but it seems quite too far out for some reason to see a tracker behave like that :)

I have used traditional sequencers and a wide range of trackers before. This has never been an issue to me. I honestly have no idea how this detracts from the software in any way.

I guess you COULD add a toggle for it in the preferences, but i have never even considered this remotely problematic.

I mean this is the gentlest friendliest way i can, but this sounds like such a personal problem.

Yeah… perhaps it is… Just talked about this recently with fellow musicians and was shocked to see that this looping mode cannot be even turned off in Rn :):slight_smile:

I’ll go and create the empty pattern for myself so no problem :)

:blink:

Hi,

So I made the empty pattern as I had thought of even before starting this thread…

Actually this problem cannot be solved by using the F000 command… This is because the song does not jump to the beginning if you press play. Reeeally sluggishes the workflow if you have to rewind the song from the end to the start everytime.

Anyways just wanted to share this idea because that is a fact that there is no other software that is all about looping itself all the time and marketing wise it would be intelligent to iron this bug / bad feature out =)

so it’s not just for me that I’m asking. =) anyways… I’m off discussing this, surprised to see that everyone else don’t see any problem here…

Peace to all… :)

edit:

And, Um yes I’m not totally against the standard tracking looping style. I’m more after a tickbox or at least some way to put the looping off (because the looping is bad for our creative flow).

This is actually the first forum where I’ve ever seen a topic “Help, I never finish my songs” and the looping plays a big part in that wheter some of us want to admit it or not. =)

The part of scientifical studies I presented earlier (and this is because I used to work at a brainresearch center for some years and got to talk with some really interesting people) also in real life means that our brains grow rapidly immune to repeated sounds. And for those of you interested that is also the scientifical reason why a brain can understand a looped beat with a swing better than just straight 16ht notes…

And this applies to looping the whole song too. What this results is that after a while of looping we do not actually hear what we are creating anymore. =)

btw. I think you all know the feeling when you go to bed after a night of making music… and the song is playing inside your head?!? That is actually the soundwave of the song flipped upside down and the reason we hear it is because the orinal sound source is stopped. :)

Option in an ini file, everybody happy?

No, I’m totally not contradicting myself. You are just not seeing the point and I really cannot understand what is so freaky or strange about this subject.

This is crystal clear stuff for anyone who makes music.

You loop the song… You get stuck… you make the song, it progresses…

You have a software that forces you to loop everything you do… you are more likely to never finish the song…

edit: and hope you guys don’t get me wrong here… I’m really thinking about the future of renoise and every user that uses it. Myself I am going to propably either use the template that has to be rewinded every time (If you look at sequencers, they play what is done and then jump to the beginning of the song when you press play) or I’ll just get stuck in the loop… heh :) But I’m just raising this issue because it would help renoise userbase to become more pro - meaning it would give artistical freedom that we now don’t have and therefor help people make better songs.

This stuff is subliminal, but… should it be less important than anything else? Ain’t it important if a software subliminally blocks the artists feelings and creative flow? =) imo… the essence and feel of a software is just as important as the list of features.

Can’t see that being “such a minor issue” if the sofware has a feature that subliminally helps block the musicians mind =)

Once again… for those of you who missed it -> Prodigy on looping and how he was afraid to do the switch from a W30 sequencer into Cubase because there the looping can be switched on:

"Cubase has helped my writing quite a bit. I was so stuck with the W30 I never really thought I’d need more than 16 tracks. Also, I was worried I’d change the way I wrote. Now, I try and write the same way I used to on the W30; for example, I try not to copy too many things. I might write something and do an 8-bar section instead of one bar repeated, which is what most people in dance music do. The worst thing is getting stuck in an 8-bar loop – you stick Cycle on, come up with something good, and it goes round and round. Then you get stuck into a groove, and it takes you ages to actually write the song. I try not to use Cycle too much – just until I get a few ideas, then I turn it off. "

and I did not make this up after reading the liam’s interview even though he is one of my all time musical gods…

I understand some of you want to loop - but I think that’s propably because you have not experienced anything else. But please at least consider this topic on some level. . It might help you and the future users of renoise get out of the loop too… heh… ;)

Good vibes to all…

[quote="#<0x0000562854b4c8c8>, post:18, topic:20238"]
You have a software that forces you to loop everything you do… you are more likely to never finish the song…
[/quote]

Renoise doesn’t force you to do anything! When your song/pattern is finished, just hit the damn stop button… is that so difficult? It’s not like Renoise is taking control of your mind and forcing you to work in a certain way. Nobody is forcing you to sit there looping the pattern to infinity!



I understand your idea and your desire to have an option to enable/disable this behaviour, but I think you are over-reacting a bit here. Regardless of whether this option is ever added to Renoise, all you have to do is press the stop button… it’s really not the end of the world.



.</0x0000562854b4c8c8>

Well… Might you agree that Renoise forces us to either listen to the song for an infinity or press stop instead if we don’t want to do that? :)

I actually have no reaction or emotions involved here… Just want to share thoughts :)

Yeah… It’s not the end… but it might act as a mind suppressent for many musicians. <- not meaning that its bad though. heh…

…it can also lead into something good. You never know.

:)

anyways…

*going back to play with the stop button ;):wink: