Renoise lacks of some common standard features, not even modern ones, thatās a fact - so you can call these āweak pointsā. Then there are quite a lot workflow limitations (besides a lot workflow benefits of course), another fact - also weak points. And then there are heavy bugs for macos users (mainly introduced by Apple). I donāt get what your problem is with āweak pointsā. If you donāt use the parts of Renoise which are weak, fine, good for you, but do not then expect other people to use the same workflow. You may just did not reach the limitations yet, or maybe you donāt know what is possible elsewhere. Your behaviour in here, stating people were ācryingā and just are not so clever like you, actually is pretty ignorant and provoking.
yes, itās crying when people who complain are ignorant to look up and search same topic in forum. Should i feel bad about it now?
Why am i ignorant please be exact, and how am i provoking? be specific please
iām stating that because itās constant loop of complaining (rather than crying)
so, what are from your perspective limitations that you are having most time dealing with? and some standard features that we are missing? And what is āstandardā feature for something in between DAW and tracker? Is there a list what is āsupposed to haveā?
Heavy bugs? (who mentioned bugs at all? i was talking on complaining about XYZ features rather than fixes/updates, which you involved now, fixes are awesome, too!) iām on mac, please elaborate on those bugs:?
Of course i would not use renoise to record full band with 30 mics, -if you consider that a weak point? (if you are referring to similar approaches - or please give some examples).
I donāt like playing guessing games, be exact please.
Oh really? you just guess things andā¦? cool
I used Ableton, Bitwig, MPC, Geist, EMU X3, Reaper, Acid pro, Milkytracker, Cool edit pro, Ardour/Mixbus, Played piano, Accordion and whatnot, and iām sort of aware what goes on regarding other DAWS if that is your point when saying
When did i say that iām the most clever person? How can you just pick random strings and assume stuff? Wanna be specific or you just keep guessing stuff around? I was stating my belief, and expect to hear yours, specific view on this subject, rather than playing guessing game?
i know that everybody has own workflow, and i respect that but please, be exact what are you missing when doing stuff that you do?
This is rather debate why should you put XYZ into here when there are solutions already. Shouldnāt devs do something really worth it, or just re-implement stuff thatās been around, or even doesnāt make sense to add to a Renoise itself?
Thanks
Yes sometimes a bit strange vibes in here. Not always friendly moods. But I never really took any objections.
I mean different people come together in here, and in a mix of people there are always some who are negative. Thatās how people are, some people got a mood high, some got it low, thatās just how life is. Also the main point seems to be that people are discontent with renoise itself, they love it and would like it being even better, which doesnāt really happen so they are just fed up a littleā¦ Some people can handle such frustration, others need to let off steam and pressure to feel well, and that is what you are criticisingā¦
IDK for myself Iād say itās no use trying to educate such people. They are just like that, and will ever be, try to chase them away and a new stock of such people will appearā¦
Rather try to create a positive counterweight by posting interesting, inspiring stuff instead. I mean itās about music, we all got some phantasy thing going on in here, letās celebrate it. If things go well, other people might join in who like such, with some chances of eventually turning over the climate of the forum. I think there are lots of people just reading for learning, not participating in the forums and using renoise in quiet, maybe some would like to join when they see interesting discussions going on.
For example what I think is lacking a bit in here is discussions about actual sound design and music production techniques, and that is what should spark interest in every one of us, because such can teach you to make better musicā¦
Ofc youāre right when some trolls systematically derail threads that were started with different intents, then a problem is there. Also when people go too rude. But I never really seen such action, certain colors of normal hardship yes, but nothing so toxic that it would cause tears. The more noteworthy incidents all happend in their own, dedicated threads, maybe harming some peoples moods, but not derailing other stuff in the forums too much.
Much discussion Iāve seen here that you would probably take objection from was just normal discussion about feature wishes. Iāve seldom seen it derail into chaos, its just people mentioning what they think would be better, they maybe do it a bit too often, but I donāt see it beyond any red lines in general.
well said Zer0ā¦ sorry, i was just being frustrated around here. Just because i cannot let go reading people posting same questions, features, over and over again - all because i feel at home when using renoiseā¦
Good point! never thought that wayā¦
Iām into constructive discussions anytime, music theory, arrangement, mixing, layering, anything literally you name it
well, i will try to f$@# off a bit and chill. Sorry again guys
Man, I didnāt want to say that you lack of experience or wanted to question your skills, I just said you obviously did not use that parts which are limited. No need to feel offended or attacked. It wasnāt meant like that. Since you used so many DAWs and yet have no idea what is missing in Renoise, obviously your personal workflow is quite different to the one of some others (IMO quite a lot) of people. And I donāt want to repeat myself over and over again and post negative energy with missing feature lists. If you really want to know what I mean by missing, I suggest you to browse the forum back in time, since this was already stated a hundred times, also by me.
If you say that people who are āwhiningā just should view tutorials to better understand, then you also are assuming that the problem is the lack of knowledge of the others, or at least it sounds like this - which I think will provoke others. Maybe your workflow nicely fits into Renoise capabilities, while othersā workflows not so much. For example, if you use Renoise mainly as VSTi/VST driver, you will soon reach limitations.
you are right, sorry once again, i bursted this morning.
sorry, when did i say that people need to watch more tutorials? 
- iāve said that i donāt understand what the āultimateā limitations are to some people, since they spend more time asking for XYZ feature than making musicā¦ iām curious whatās that important to them
I use vst/au just as fx processors only (tokyo dawn plugins) and everything else is contained within native sampler
- for my way of making music, itās perfectly fine. Sometimes i just program stuff, at other times, i record simple melody/harmony whatever, and just fine edit with further programming.
- iām used to āsloppyā guis, as long as audio is intact and OK, so thatās another nope from my workflow. (i donāt utilize automation in other way than drawing points). The plugins that iām using are always reaching10-15% per instance because they are cpu hogs (tdr kotelninkov, tdr limiter, tdr slick eq M and few more from same company), but iām used to them, and to me they sound pristine, so i tend to resample often, to free up some additional cpu cycles
- i agree on dropping 32 bit support in near future, but doesnāt concern me even slightest
Sorry, I mixed up then, was another guy (lot of guys).
I think Renoise really is the best tracker interface available. And since it is so good already, it creates desires to have the perfect DAW for tracker enthusiasts. Also, roughly 5 years of no real update creates frustration, too. Isnāt this normal? If Renoise was shit, no one would bother.
This was a technical thought-provoking impulse. Renoise currently only supports one-dot-per-line automation recording thru right-mouse-down-slider movements (and standard midi automation, too). Renoise macos currently is not capable of displaying the GUI with 60fps (on recent macos/hardware). So right-mouse-down slider recording will be very imprecise just because of that. So until it isnāt fixed to fluent 60fps, there is no need to add interline automation writing at all. I guess thatās why it wasnāt implemented yet.
Same goes for my workaround tool āGUI automation recorderā. Since Renoise doesnāt display the VST GUIs on macos with fluent 60fps like all the other DAWs (with same plugins and CPU load), the recording will be imprecise just of because of that. It seems to be process-design related. If the audio- and midi engine was completely separated to the GUI process, I guess the results would be better. Or similar.
I am pretty sure Taktik all knows this (much better). And mostly all limitations are caused by lack of time.
well explained. I wasnāt even using right-click automation in-line, rather drawing automation envelopes until i get desired state. I understand that it can be PITA if your workflow requires that, no doubt.
Is there a donation open for Taktik at the moment? i would donate some small amount monthly, regardless if he works more or less on renoise, just because i found peace within the tracker itself.
AFAIK Taktik never ever replied to suggestions like that. So I guess the best support will be to buy another Renoise or Redux or Sononym license.
Actually I do not really know, if it works like this. It is only an assumption based on observation of how Renoise reacts. Maybe this is nonsense, and the actual input process is separated from the GUI (or should be), since there is no technical reason. Once you are pressing down the rmb on a slider, theoretically listening to mouse movements only would be enough, no matter if visual feedback was delayed or imprecise (seems to be important only for precise reaction). So the actual design of a DAW could be also like: controls input (including midi) into one process, gui into one process, audio generation into one (or multiple) process(es). And then queues in between. I really would love to know how this actually currently works, in Renoise and also in Bitwig.
I agree that the recent influx of complaining posts looks very bad. I admit Iām guilty of replying to them (and this one), but I think it has to stop now.
Renoise is 100% a complete DAW as of 3.1. I wasnāt here for earlier versions, but from what Iāve read previous versions were certainly missing things other DAWs had (autoseek, good filters, etc). I migrated from Logic Pro X into Renoise 3.1 a few months ago and the only feature I miss from it is timestretch. Thatās the one thing (besides coding and compatibility stuff I guess) youāre allowed to complain about in my book. But even the timestretch issue has workarounds.
I really hope the hardworking devs donāt take peopleās puerile musings on new features Renoise doesnāt need (mine included) and incessant comparisons to Bitwig as actual complaints about it being an inadequate or incomplete DAW. Because it isnāt and anybody whoās actually put in the man hours working this thing knows that.
Maybe instead of whining here about āindustry standardā features and a lack of tutorials you should make industry standard music with Renoise and make tutorials. The best feature a DAW can have is a group of people who push it to its limits and the best advertisement a DAW can have is a bunch of people who are absolutely killing it calling it their DAW of choice.
I didnāt mean for this post to sound as harsh as it does but we should really chill with the āRenoise badā posts.
And as for GUI/bitmap/compatibility fear-mongering posts, I really think that if you have identified something that poses an existential threat to Renoise in the future, taktik and the other devs have probably been on top of it for some time now.
Speculations on the manpower and financial state of Renoise donāt help either, and it only spreads rumors. If they want to do some type of crowdfunding or open source thing Iām sure they will let us know.
This concludes my rant.
You really so far didnāt understand a lot of what I wrote, or did you? Why are you now using the same wordings like āwhiningā, ā100% completeā, do you want to provoke the people? If I was the admin, I would delete your post, too.
FWIW, thereās been bitching [I donāt mean this derogatorily at all, nor do I exclude myself from it] since as long as I can remember, even when there were loads of updates.
I wish Renoise was this giant company pumping out features and tutorials and competitions, but then again, tracking may just be too niche for that, I donāt know. But for what it does, what it costs and considering long licenses last, itās certainly in my hall of fame for best all around software. I just hope that if itās ever in any danger of development stopping completely, that taktik would come to us so we can, say, make a kickstarter to make it open source or something like that.
If they have enough resources and time for working on āwhatever the community wantsā, theyāll make a poll, I bet you. Theyāll find a way. They also know that we want to know whatās coming and when, theyāll tell us when they can. I donāt agree with calling it ācryingā, but however you want to call it, it doesnāt achieve much. Itās not like theyāre twiddling their thumbs, so that enough people saying Renoise could be improved would make them jump up from the chair and slap their forehead, because they forgot about Renoise.
mostly all limitations are caused by lack of time
Theyāre probably busy with other things, if there was a way to make Renoise such a money machine to entice them to focus more on it, what could that be? The way canāt be āit needs all these features so they have the resources to develop these featuresā.
I treat the devs as a black box, as private persons, I donāt know what theyāre doing and thatās their thing. But what actually matters is that I know what I am not doing. Yes, Renoise could be more than it is, but the Renoise users could also do more than they do, right? And Iām not pointing fingers, I also usually just come here to āsee if there is anything newā, not contributing at all. But just think compos (plenty of them, in all shapes and sizes), tutorials and toolsā¦ and of course songs. This thing can load a single file, even display a little intro textā¦ even with the demo versionā¦ and then there is hardly a limit to how awesome the music could be. Have we used all that to the fullest extent? I would say no.
Honestly, I think there is a fear from deep within, after spending a lot of time using renoise, preparing things, reading the manual over and over and asking countless technical questions on the forum to get more and more knowledge and become an expert, the fear that all trackers dont make past version 3.1ā¦people just want to continue to use renoise into the future. When the next version finally comes people will relax a little, then two years later they might start worrying its the end, that its all over and stuff.
Another thing, I think new users feel like they are getting into something different, unique and technical when they take up renoise so when they come on the forums they want to show how much they know by pointing out little things which they consider to be wrong, to show how much they have learnt and how down with trackers they areā¦maybe they really are the genius? so technical and like the apple keynote speech, succesful businessman, feature request wizkid, how impressive!
When they get a reply like āthats just a fucking dumb feature request, you dont know what you are talking about at allā, its disheartening to them even if āits a fucking stupid feature requestā is fucking trueā¦there are arguments that arise because people take things the wrong way, if comments are only in text you cant really communicate your āfunny sarchasmā that well. But if you want to argue about tracker I can! - that was a little sarchastic and funny to me - but its only in text and non tonal so people might take it as someone genuinely looking for troubleā¦but honestly whatever the fuck up in this hereā¦renoise is the greatest, cannot critisize!! and thats really true
also sometimes the noobs who get mocked for not knowing renoise inside out like a strange old man, surrounded by dusty books about rernoise, end up being the greatest of all timeā¦most of the tracker beef is nerdy sarchastic beef, its nothing to worry about
edited wrong post, lost
Personally, i do not understand what all the fuss is about.
Everyday people around here are comparing Renoise with ā¦ something else.
So, if you prefer something else - this forum might not be for you.
Renoise is a tracker. Either use it or not.
As long as its never āfinishedā. I never want to see āno more updates everā kind of situation because its awesome, ive put alot of time into renoise cutting up all those breaks, you dont know how long it takes to build up a huge amount of individual hits, assign them to padsā¦later on start EQing them, layering them, not to mention putting time into other things as well. Im committed to renoiseā¦I never want to do any of that again in another DAW. It takes long.
If I compare to other DAW it wins every time. Because the price is rightā¦the others I simply cannot afford. They are a rip off, like most VSTā¦remember the days when there were no bullshit subscriptions, all software was like 49.99? Well now people think they can charge 800 or more for a piece of software, then act like a bitch when it gets cracked. But im saying the price is right here so, respect for thatā¦the features are better than other DAWs too, dont need anything elseā¦just hope it keeps going foreverā¦it too good, everything nice.
software has never been so cheap and there has never been so much choice (that annoys me often) as today
Ever seen what logic, soundforge or reaktor cost in the beginning?
in line with this topic
http://www.musicwords.net/musictech/sucks.htm
Amen.
I also do everything in Renoise, though I kinda stick to wav samples and organizing them in folders, so Iām not as āinvestedā that way. But otherwise, Iām pretty sure without Renoise, I wouldnāt be making music. I mean, I derped around in FastTracker II, but just like I derped around with a digicam and didnāt get āintoā photography until I got a DSLR, it wasnāt until Renoise that I managed to make things I genuinely liked.
exactly. hope its just never finished. keep on developing it just for the love of this awesome creationā¦no rush, just keep doing it. Its like some tapestry or tibetan painting, they can take a whole lifetime to complete. Its great software. just spent the last two years cutting up breaks and still going. Im an old school sampler guy, everything just renoise, not really too much vst, and i think alot of the preprepared sample packs that you hear from ableton and maschine stuff like that sound too over processedā¦something not right. too glossy, too modernā¦its not like the dusty, homemade, crunchy imperfect things you can get going if you do all your sampling yourselfā¦sampling from vinyl and VHS, charity shop stuffā¦thats the real nice sound in my opinion and renoise is the perfect sampler sequencer for me at a cheap price. I probably will be lookng to get a nice vst or two when I finally finsh up these breaks, specifically an 808 like nepheton for layering with individual breaks hits making the perfect drum sound and also some kind of fat bass vst for big basslines to go with those nice crispy drums. cutting up these breaks is hardcoreā¦but have to get through itā¦ the 200 breaks download here on the forums was the greatest gift ever. someone recently posted 101s breaks and Declassified breaks as wellā¦cant wait to get em all choppedā¦ im on a missionā¦so hope renoise will never falter nor fade and keep on. its one of the best no need to stopā¦i tried abletonā¦not feeling all that double clicking in the pianorollā¦honestly renoise is better. hate it when people assume renoise or all trackers are something they can program themselves in a fortniteā¦that kind of arrogant attitude like āhey, i read something about an algorithm once, now im a programmer too, let me advise you on your 20 years of hardcore programming in C languages, by the way, whats a sampler?ā