Really, people?

Reading daily posts, and really, there are no constructive points of 80% of them (put aside topics asking for tip/help/workaround explicitly)

topics example:

What Renoise sucks at as a DAW


Is this it for Renoise & Trackers as a DAW?

some example
~ posting xyz content without reading posts associated with it (and ignoring workarounds)
~ asking for features just because it’s “standard” ~ and should be implemented (when there are present tools (many of them(~there are free tools as well)))

why shouldn’t you get the job done with the tools that are already there? no? create one more to make you comfortable? sure, make 120312311924 of them, to make everyone comfortable.

i really like renoise, it’s capable enough. If you don’t have ideas what to do with yourself or your music, that is not problem coming from renoise…
tip:
if you cannot decide between 2 daws
example:
1 bitwig < super awesome ultra daw, has everything you need
2. renoise < not so shiny modular - good looking daw, doesn’t have all you need
< buy bitwig, don’t even bother to cry here as like you were last guy on planet, living off from creating music.
(don’t get me wrong, bitwig is not bad at all, it’s awesome, but don’t buy renoise and put pressure on forum for implementing XYZ feature)

you need multitrack recording? record in reaper/ardour whatever, edit(chop) in peace in renoise afterwards. No problem encountered, it’s rather solved.

Need audio tracks? sync it with reaper/whatever daw really (that already has pitch edit for example, so you don’t have to cry over it as well as i asked few times on forum, but the reality is that before that a lot has to be changed - for the time being, it makes no sense)

~ And the main thing is; try not to bother developers, they will develop how they feel so, imagine reading daily same stuff over and over again over something you made “affordable” and so awesome same time, and people don’t even respect that… (respect is not saying “i respect you” but doing something completely opposite)

Forum is awesome, Renoise is awesome, most of people are awesome… devs are awesome too!

guys, do something, why should we ruin this effort of developers and renoise awesomeness?

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I think that is the main problem.People are going to complain no matter what,it’s in our nature unfortunately.Always want more and more and most of the time dont know how to use them or if we really need them.Anyway people know that at the time there is only one developer for Renoise so little things may happen just dont expect big changes any time soon.And good music is still being done in Renoise for sure…

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Exactly - you put it out nicely. there are so many awesome things regarding renoise and yet…

Renoise is awesome, cheers to the devs and all contributors (i consider archenar dev as well, since videos are top notch straight to the point!)

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Agreed. The current version of Renoise is not meant to be a “modern DAW” from todays perspective. Still, I think it’s quite understandable for people to react when it’s gradually turning more obsolete by not getting current technical standards implemented.

All the outlandish or nitpicky feature requests are fun to read, though.

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Youi know what the bigger problem is?There are not many good tutorials in depth for renoise so people can really understand its capabiities (me inclouded).I wiil do some tutorials when i am good with Renoise but mine would just scratch the surface, we need some old time Renoise users to do some.Not everyone goes to the forum to find answers and then gives up very easily.Video tutorials are essential these days if you want to be known, you or your work.

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I think it is not about critics in general, there are quite a bunch of valid points, if you expect modern daw features, it depends on perspective.

The problem here is more about a very disrespectful and unfair way how these critics and also the counterattacks are formulated. Also this forum lacks of moderation. If you would delete any post with any kind of disrespectful language, pro and contra, I believe it would highly improve the forum content. At least, I would do so. Rigorously. Like this: Fool language? Devaluing? Is it provoking? DELETED! 3 times repeated? FORUM KICK! Not focussing on content at all. Maybe there is a neural network for that?

For sure Taktik knows about the weak points in Renoise, but he already explained that he is not willing to transform Renoise completely to a modern daw, because he believes is more like a very advanced tracker. Also he many times stated that it is basically a matter of not available spare time.

Why not focus on very minor detail changes instead, which could be actually manageable for a single programmer with a family and a job. For example: Add interline resolution (already implemented) to automation recording.

Also stating that “Renoise is perfect” on and on and on does not help either. You just throw oil in the fire.

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what is perfect in this world?
no one stated that it is perfect, it’s just that is enough to unleash your creativity, and for sure isn’t a blocker - and reason to cry over.

  • i totally agree about the way critics are introduced. So much drama… why? what it contributes?
  • minor changes are awesome, there are many minor improvements that could do a lot actually.

why do most of people say “weak points”? What is this, a car crash test? Will it kill you? Will it stop you from earning your wage so you could not survive? Use things that you like, if you don’t - try workaround, if not - change workflow, there is solution already…

Renoise lacks of some common standard features, not even modern ones, that’s a fact - so you can call these “weak points”. Then there are quite a lot workflow limitations (besides a lot workflow benefits of course), another fact - also weak points. And then there are heavy bugs for macos users (mainly introduced by Apple). I don’t get what your problem is with “weak points”. If you don’t use the parts of Renoise which are weak, fine, good for you, but do not then expect other people to use the same workflow. You may just did not reach the limitations yet, or maybe you don’t know what is possible elsewhere. Your behaviour in here, stating people were “crying” and just are not so clever like you, actually is pretty ignorant and provoking.

yes, it’s crying when people who complain are ignorant to look up and search same topic in forum. Should i feel bad about it now?
Why am i ignorant please be exact, and how am i provoking? be specific please

i’m stating that because it’s constant loop of complaining (rather than crying)

so, what are from your perspective limitations that you are having most time dealing with? and some standard features that we are missing? And what is “standard” feature for something in between DAW and tracker? Is there a list what is “supposed to have”?

Heavy bugs? (who mentioned bugs at all? i was talking on complaining about XYZ features rather than fixes/updates, which you involved now, fixes are awesome, too!) i’m on mac, please elaborate on those bugs:?

Of course i would not use renoise to record full band with 30 mics, -if you consider that a weak point? (if you are referring to similar approaches - or please give some examples).
I don’t like playing guessing games, be exact please.

Oh really? you just guess things and…? cool
I used Ableton, Bitwig, MPC, Geist, EMU X3, Reaper, Acid pro, Milkytracker, Cool edit pro, Ardour/Mixbus, Played piano, Accordion and whatnot, and i’m sort of aware what goes on regarding other DAWS if that is your point when saying

When did i say that i’m the most clever person? How can you just pick random strings and assume stuff? Wanna be specific or you just keep guessing stuff around? I was stating my belief, and expect to hear yours, specific view on this subject, rather than playing guessing game?
i know that everybody has own workflow, and i respect that but please, be exact what are you missing when doing stuff that you do?
This is rather debate why should you put XYZ into here when there are solutions already. Shouldn’t devs do something really worth it, or just re-implement stuff that’s been around, or even doesn’t make sense to add to a Renoise itself?

Thanks

Yes sometimes a bit strange vibes in here. Not always friendly moods. But I never really took any objections.

I mean different people come together in here, and in a mix of people there are always some who are negative. That’s how people are, some people got a mood high, some got it low, that’s just how life is. Also the main point seems to be that people are discontent with renoise itself, they love it and would like it being even better, which doesn’t really happen so they are just fed up a little… Some people can handle such frustration, others need to let off steam and pressure to feel well, and that is what you are criticising…

IDK for myself I’d say it’s no use trying to educate such people. They are just like that, and will ever be, try to chase them away and a new stock of such people will appear…

Rather try to create a positive counterweight by posting interesting, inspiring stuff instead. I mean it’s about music, we all got some phantasy thing going on in here, let’s celebrate it. If things go well, other people might join in who like such, with some chances of eventually turning over the climate of the forum. I think there are lots of people just reading for learning, not participating in the forums and using renoise in quiet, maybe some would like to join when they see interesting discussions going on.

For example what I think is lacking a bit in here is discussions about actual sound design and music production techniques, and that is what should spark interest in every one of us, because such can teach you to make better music…

Ofc you’re right when some trolls systematically derail threads that were started with different intents, then a problem is there. Also when people go too rude. But I never really seen such action, certain colors of normal hardship yes, but nothing so toxic that it would cause tears. The more noteworthy incidents all happend in their own, dedicated threads, maybe harming some peoples moods, but not derailing other stuff in the forums too much.

Much discussion I’ve seen here that you would probably take objection from was just normal discussion about feature wishes. I’ve seldom seen it derail into chaos, its just people mentioning what they think would be better, they maybe do it a bit too often, but I don’t see it beyond any red lines in general.

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well said Zer0… sorry, i was just being frustrated around here. Just because i cannot let go reading people posting same questions, features, over and over again - all because i feel at home when using renoise…

Good point! never thought that way…

I’m into constructive discussions anytime, music theory, arrangement, mixing, layering, anything literally you name it

well, i will try to f$@# off a bit and chill. Sorry again guys

Man, I didn’t want to say that you lack of experience or wanted to question your skills, I just said you obviously did not use that parts which are limited. No need to feel offended or attacked. It wasn’t meant like that. Since you used so many DAWs and yet have no idea what is missing in Renoise, obviously your personal workflow is quite different to the one of some others (IMO quite a lot) of people. And I don’t want to repeat myself over and over again and post negative energy with missing feature lists. If you really want to know what I mean by missing, I suggest you to browse the forum back in time, since this was already stated a hundred times, also by me.

If you say that people who are “whining” just should view tutorials to better understand, then you also are assuming that the problem is the lack of knowledge of the others, or at least it sounds like this - which I think will provoke others. Maybe your workflow nicely fits into Renoise capabilities, while others’ workflows not so much. For example, if you use Renoise mainly as VSTi/VST driver, you will soon reach limitations.

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you are right, sorry once again, i bursted this morning.
sorry, when did i say that people need to watch more tutorials? :slight_smile:

  • i’ve said that i don’t understand what the “ultimate” limitations are to some people, since they spend more time asking for XYZ feature than making music… i’m curious what’s that important to them :thinking:

I use vst/au just as fx processors only (tokyo dawn plugins) and everything else is contained within native sampler

  • for my way of making music, it’s perfectly fine. Sometimes i just program stuff, at other times, i record simple melody/harmony whatever, and just fine edit with further programming.
  • i’m used to “sloppy” guis, as long as audio is intact and OK, so that’s another nope from my workflow. (i don’t utilize automation in other way than drawing points). The plugins that i’m using are always reaching10-15% per instance because they are cpu hogs (tdr kotelninkov, tdr limiter, tdr slick eq M and few more from same company), but i’m used to them, and to me they sound pristine, so i tend to resample often, to free up some additional cpu cycles
  • i agree on dropping 32 bit support in near future, but doesn’t concern me even slightest

Sorry, I mixed up then, was another guy (lot of guys).

I think Renoise really is the best tracker interface available. And since it is so good already, it creates desires to have the perfect DAW for tracker enthusiasts. Also, roughly 5 years of no real update creates frustration, too. Isn’t this normal? If Renoise was shit, no one would bother.

This was a technical thought-provoking impulse. Renoise currently only supports one-dot-per-line automation recording thru right-mouse-down-slider movements (and standard midi automation, too). Renoise macos currently is not capable of displaying the GUI with 60fps (on recent macos/hardware). So right-mouse-down slider recording will be very imprecise just because of that. So until it isn’t fixed to fluent 60fps, there is no need to add interline automation writing at all. I guess that’s why it wasn’t implemented yet.

Same goes for my workaround tool “GUI automation recorder”. Since Renoise doesn’t display the VST GUIs on macos with fluent 60fps like all the other DAWs (with same plugins and CPU load), the recording will be imprecise just of because of that. It seems to be process-design related. If the audio- and midi engine was completely separated to the GUI process, I guess the results would be better. Or similar.

I am pretty sure Taktik all knows this (much better). And mostly all limitations are caused by lack of time.

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well explained. I wasn’t even using right-click automation in-line, rather drawing automation envelopes until i get desired state. I understand that it can be PITA if your workflow requires that, no doubt.

Is there a donation open for Taktik at the moment? i would donate some small amount monthly, regardless if he works more or less on renoise, just because i found peace within the tracker itself.

AFAIK Taktik never ever replied to suggestions like that. So I guess the best support will be to buy another Renoise or Redux or Sononym license.

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Actually I do not really know, if it works like this. It is only an assumption based on observation of how Renoise reacts. Maybe this is nonsense, and the actual input process is separated from the GUI (or should be), since there is no technical reason. Once you are pressing down the rmb on a slider, theoretically listening to mouse movements only would be enough, no matter if visual feedback was delayed or imprecise (seems to be important only for precise reaction). So the actual design of a DAW could be also like: controls input (including midi) into one process, gui into one process, audio generation into one (or multiple) process(es). And then queues in between. I really would love to know how this actually currently works, in Renoise and also in Bitwig.

I agree that the recent influx of complaining posts looks very bad. I admit I’m guilty of replying to them (and this one), but I think it has to stop now.

Renoise is 100% a complete DAW as of 3.1. I wasn’t here for earlier versions, but from what I’ve read previous versions were certainly missing things other DAWs had (autoseek, good filters, etc). I migrated from Logic Pro X into Renoise 3.1 a few months ago and the only feature I miss from it is timestretch. That’s the one thing (besides coding and compatibility stuff I guess) you’re allowed to complain about in my book. But even the timestretch issue has workarounds.

I really hope the hardworking devs don’t take people’s puerile musings on new features Renoise doesn’t need (mine included) and incessant comparisons to Bitwig as actual complaints about it being an inadequate or incomplete DAW. Because it isn’t and anybody who’s actually put in the man hours working this thing knows that.

Maybe instead of whining here about “industry standard” features and a lack of tutorials you should make industry standard music with Renoise and make tutorials. The best feature a DAW can have is a group of people who push it to its limits and the best advertisement a DAW can have is a bunch of people who are absolutely killing it calling it their DAW of choice.

I didn’t mean for this post to sound as harsh as it does but we should really chill with the “Renoise bad” posts.

And as for GUI/bitmap/compatibility fear-mongering posts, I really think that if you have identified something that poses an existential threat to Renoise in the future, taktik and the other devs have probably been on top of it for some time now.

Speculations on the manpower and financial state of Renoise don’t help either, and it only spreads rumors. If they want to do some type of crowdfunding or open source thing I’m sure they will let us know.

This concludes my rant.

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You really so far didn’t understand a lot of what I wrote, or did you? Why are you now using the same wordings like “whining”, “100% complete”, do you want to provoke the people? If I was the admin, I would delete your post, too.

FWIW, there’s been bitching [I don’t mean this derogatorily at all, nor do I exclude myself from it] since as long as I can remember, even when there were loads of updates.

I wish Renoise was this giant company pumping out features and tutorials and competitions, but then again, tracking may just be too niche for that, I don’t know. But for what it does, what it costs and considering long licenses last, it’s certainly in my hall of fame for best all around software. I just hope that if it’s ever in any danger of development stopping completely, that taktik would come to us so we can, say, make a kickstarter to make it open source or something like that.

If they have enough resources and time for working on “whatever the community wants”, they’ll make a poll, I bet you. They’ll find a way. They also know that we want to know what’s coming and when, they’ll tell us when they can. I don’t agree with calling it “crying”, but however you want to call it, it doesn’t achieve much. It’s not like they’re twiddling their thumbs, so that enough people saying Renoise could be improved would make them jump up from the chair and slap their forehead, because they forgot about Renoise.

mostly all limitations are caused by lack of time

They’re probably busy with other things, if there was a way to make Renoise such a money machine to entice them to focus more on it, what could that be? The way can’t be “it needs all these features so they have the resources to develop these features”.

I treat the devs as a black box, as private persons, I don’t know what they’re doing and that’s their thing. But what actually matters is that I know what I am not doing. Yes, Renoise could be more than it is, but the Renoise users could also do more than they do, right? And I’m not pointing fingers, I also usually just come here to “see if there is anything new”, not contributing at all. But just think compos (plenty of them, in all shapes and sizes), tutorials and tools… and of course songs. This thing can load a single file, even display a little intro text… even with the demo version… and then there is hardly a limit to how awesome the music could be. Have we used all that to the fullest extent? I would say no.

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