Or just that they are listening to the large portion of the current user base that has requested the piano roll.
I’m pretty sure the Renoise team’s goal is a damn good music tool, not profit. Yes, they need income to continue, but they don’t make Renoise with the goal of making fucktons of cash. Assuming that is the case, all is as it should be.
Thanks for the clarification dblue. Facts are better than speculation, even though this is the speculation thread. Hopefully Glitch2 is selling quite well, as it is a fantastic plugin that permanently resides in my Favorites section. I just wish there was a way we could have stuff like that Tape stop integrated as a pattern command in Renoise and more modulation parameters and stuff.
Ah, that’s very nice. Cheers for danoise!
Indeed, and that’s why it can be frustrating at times to know so little about the man who has such big influence on all of us, but - hopefully he’ll be able and willing to keep developing Renoise for many years to come.
Awesome, taktik rocks even outside of Renoise. I really hope he’s into iOS as well… 
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Exactly, let’s not forget about that.
For me, this is just like the issue with the alphanumeric representation of note data versus the visual-linear representation of note data (“tracker” vs. “pianoroll”) - there is no real conflict between them. Profit is a very good measure of how much people actually value something, but it’s also a good measure of productivity itself.
(If you plant potatoes today, you’ll expect to harvest more potatoes tomorrow. The profit equals the productivity factor: if you’re harvesting just as much potatoes as you planted, you haven’t produced anything actually. Of course people often refer to the concept of “profit” in a negative sense, meaning unfair and unjust accumulation or manipulation of resources (such as destroying the little man’s means of production and forcing him to sell his labor to work on another man’s potato land). Actually, this discussion is a hot potato in itself - because it touches on moral/ethical issues and ultimately on life or death. So let’s avoid that discussion here in this thread.)
IMO there’s nothing wrong in seeking both to make a good music tool and enough surplus money (i.e. profit) to support other investments and opportunities in life. If a man is doing something he loves doing, then that doesn’t have to mean he has an obligation to live in poverty. But of course, the passion must come first - meaning the primary focus is on the product (be it software, a novel, an artwork, a business, etc) and the money making as a bonus, not an end in itself (especially not by any means, including dishonest ones).
Oh, well. I guess I can quit checking in for a while then.
i feel that i will move to bitwig when its ready 
I think “what people will buy” or “what is popular” are fundamentally different from “what is a good tool”. They often scale in conjunction, but are not directly linked. McDonalds is not good food.
True, true.
Amen, bro.
Why would anyone kill you for that? It tells nothing about how the sounds are made, nor does it soundwise contain anything revolutionary. It’s all bread and butter sounds. But the first really useful info since a very long time is imo, that there’s still no beta on the horizon yet.
Month ago I wrote about the intention to put up some video tutorials. Since then I’ve been on standby, waiting for the next Renoise release to not invest work into tutorials, that might become obsolete a few days later only. Meanwhile it would have absolutely made sense to have them made. Instead I’ve wasted more than half a year on waiting, till now finally comes the info, a beta release still isn’t close.
I’m aware the tutorial thing of course isn’t the rule, but I’m quite sure, a lot of people stopped investing time and work in huge or complex projects, because they went on standby too. That total information vacuum about 3.0 is poisoning the work with the current release too and is anything but helpful.
While I totally understand the reasons for not telling details about what’s in the works, nor telling about a release date for the 3.0 beta, I can’t understand why not someone just tells something like “don’t expect anything before march 2014”, “in best case june 2014, more probably later” or what ever. And if things become more work intesive, complicated or whatever, then just update those infos in between with a new timeline. That’d take a lot of steam out of the speculations, take away a lot of pressure from the devs and people would simply have a rough mark on the timeline they could deal with.
Well no, not really, profit is what you have left after your costs have been covered. For Renoise inc. to be more profitable it would need to sell more copies, charge more, or reduce costs. Profit isn’t in any way a measure of productivity, there are many companies out there that are incredibly productive yet make very little profit.
Anyway, why is there an assumption that mass appeal is something to be desired? Maybe taktik and crew are quite happy with the niche they occupy and the freedom it gives them. If it lets them put food on the table, whilst doing what they love, then all power to them.
Au contraire mon amie , a rough estimated deathline just brings on the pressure .
Well, I get the idea of your thought. But I wasn’t talking of a deadline in any way. I was talking about naming a (rough) date, till that for sure no release will happen. That’s one huge difference. 
You have quite a pessimistic view upon Renoise 3.0 its release date…
I can assure you, Renoise 3.0 will be out before Bitwig will have a final product.
Depending on the price, that may be the case for a lot of people from a lot of different DAWs
(However my gut instinct from the leaked original price is it will struggle like S1 and end up in cycles of price reductions/sales)
No disrespect meant here but that sounds like a completely silly comment to make, that is unless you are a member of both teams and know when both will be released, I am fairly sure you aren’t, so yes a completely silly comment. (It is possible that Bitwig release a final in twenty minutes time, unlikely but possible, re enforcing the silliness of your comment)
As for pessimism, well lets be fair here, Bitwig started from scratch and are showing a very advanced platform (Way more than the current Renoise) , Renoise is not starting from scratch and the time differentials between the two sets of devs are not in proportion, so commenting on peoples pessimism again is maybe not such a good thing to do.
I must admit when i i thought that this was a hobby project i was kind of on the devs side and thought “These guys need to STFU” but now i know it is not a hobby project i am more inclined to think “Not a set of devs that can get things done”
Is that pessimism or just simple based in reality, well from your point of view it may be pessimism, but from somebody who has to pay for v3, well it is based in reality and v3 is going to have to offer something very spectacular now otherwise the devs will just be branded as very very slow.
I see your point, however, that would require that the devs actually were/are able to estimate such a date. As I understand the situation here, they’re not working in a linear manner - slashing off feature after feature in a planned ahead roadmap. They seem to be coding Renoise just as most of us are tracking our songs: creating a pattern here, deleting a pattern there, editing stuff there, replacing the samples there, etc. Lots of experimentation. And taktik has been quite explicit that he prefers to have that kind of freedom and work that way. Probably that’s even a condition for him to be willing to code Renoise at all, and most likely he would quit if there was too much pressure on him to deliver anything on a deadline. I think we simply have to respect this and deal with it.
But I agree with you in a way, ideally if taktik just said “No later than Q4 2014, but no sooner than Q1 2014” then basically that’s all the info I’d need. Then I would plan the next year according to the Q4 info rather than the Q1 info, stop bombarding this forum with my speculations, mark a “check for more Renoise3.0 info” in the summertime calendar, and maybe invest into some other music tools in the meantime.
I think what most of us feel uncomfortable with is that there is no estimate at all, no educated guess from the devs on what’s a reasonable timeframe from where they stand today. It’s the feeling that Renoise 3.0 beta could be around the corner now when it’s soon Christmas, but could also just as well be years away or not even come out at all, that most likey drives people into frustration and makes a few users feel abandoned, non-trusted and/or treated like they don’t deserve to know. When we’re asked to be “a little bit more patient”, we just need to link that patience with some kind of concrete measurement and that’s simply a very deep hard-coded human behavior.
I think they’d “get things done” if working in a regular linear developing style, but then Renoise wouldn’t be the tank it is but rather a more bloated software. I think the devs are extremely good at building a well designed and stable software, and such good things will take time to evolve. It’s just like a good wine.
You seem to consider that time is too long.
But it’s because you’re filling your present moment with nothing while expecting something that could eventually happen in the future.
The definition of frustration : is to try to be satisfied with something that is not real and that never happens.
But the “future” itself : is not a “reality”. The future never happens now. It’s always frustrating by itself.
And focusing on the future will always lead you to frustration.
To “wait something” is to “be frustrated”, it’s the same thing.
Stop waiting, stop expecting, and fill your present moment with action.
If your brain is in perfect phase with the present moment : your perception of time will go at the true speed of what you’re living at your present moment, then.
Do more things, faster : time will be full of things and go faster.
Well, yes you are completely right. Frankly Bitwig is actually already in Beta session while Renoise 3.0 is not even in Beta session yet.The upside is when Renoise 3.0 is in beta session, every registered user is allowed to join, unlike bitwig. So i more or less am speculating on the likely fact that the majority of people on this board having a valid license extending over 3.0, will be enjoying Renoise 3.0 sooner than people can chip in for Bitwig 1.0
That could be plausible if the people at Bitwig decided to release the final product for Christmas, i hope so for the ones anticipating on it
The feature-videos look pretty good imho.
I was fair enough to hint towards Q1 2014. (but people keep responding so the message sunk away pretty quickly) I know the specific date, I’m just not allowed to give it but you have at least some period that you could mark in your agenda.
Sorry, I totally missed that hint. Also since this is the speculation thread, the line between factual hints and jokes is somewhat blurred. First quarter of 2014, now that’s wonderful news!
So there is a specific date after all, it’s just kept a secret… Well, that’s cool, and I guess what we really mean by beta release date is the point in time where taktik would say “enough is enough, let’s publish what we have so far and postpone what’s not yet ready until the next 3.x version” …
Thanks vV. I’ll stop speculating any further now, and instead drop a note in my calendar to come back and check for new Renoise 3.0 information in March 2014.
Pfft. I speculate that the q1 hint is just a smokescreen for a surprise attack before that. Just for the sake of speculation.
I’ll miss this thread.
Specific date? Sounds cool. But doesn’t make sense. I don’t believe it :-o