Renoise update?Whats going on?


(Raul (ulneiz)) #49

@Fsus4,do not exaggerate and read the context.It’s very simple. Taktik is he just keeping Renoise (Taktik alone). If he is not, there will be no more Renoise.Investing time in other projects is not investing in Renoise.It is not about doing complicated operations, it’s not about using all the time. But he is alone, he can not work miracles.Some want Renoise to keep moving. That is all.

Nor is it to destroy opinions or to think that a desire is an imposition.Now the only programmer who has Renoise is spending time on another project. That other project is not Renoise. Meanwhile, Renoise is “parked”. Simply that.

And frankly, as Renoise’s client, I care less about other projects. I’m only interested in Renoise and its future, because I want to continue using it, but if it has better features and fewer errors, better, for everyone.

For example, when Redux was developed, it was a topic I did not like. Because that time invested in Redux, it could have been to have a Renoise 3.2, for example, better, with better features. Examples: better code, less errors, better GUI, better area of automation, more functions here and there to improve other areas of work and things like that. I do not think it’s crazy at all.It is perfectly feasible.Redux is of no use if you have Renoise as the main DAW. It’s fine for other DAWs, but I’m not interested.Maybe my opinion does not please you, but that’s how we all are, with different opinions, all respectable.

Well, I’ll answer:

Here is my opinion, in contrast:

  1. If taktik spends his time on other projects than Renoise, that’s his choice and none of our business.

  2. If taktik spends time on other audio projects, chances are high that those projects will add something of value.

  3. It’s refreshing to switch projects, try out new stuff, get out of the loop. Get some new perspectives (and customers?).

  4. Fsus4hopes taktikwill go OPEN SOURCEwith Renoise, or at least LICENSE a stripped down engine version for B2B.

No one has said otherwise.I hope that Taktik will invest more time in Renoise. He will do whatever he wants, of course.Taktik is only as a programmer, as he reported…
2.
That’s fine if Renoise was backed by a small or medium-sized business with multiple programmers (2-4 programmers). If the only programmer is elsewhere, Renoise stagnates (it’s happening these months).
3.
The only feasible way to get more customers for Renoise is that Renoise is a better software.There are many alternatives.What do you want other projects for?The market is very saturated.But there is only one decent DAW as a tracker, which is Renoise.You need to pamper him like a baby, and leave the nonsense to one side.
4.
Maybe he prefers to keep full control of his software, there is no need to do it, because there are plans to keep this program as of now, little by little.

Just a new project that I would like: another tracker DAW like Renoise (with another name) powered by Taktik scheduled from scratch, it includes the inheritance of your experience. This is an impossible idea.Because a tracker today does not sell.But I am sure that this programmer, with his current experience, today, currently, would write other Renoise 1.0 in another way, with better code, with more capacity, more resource utilization, better GUI and a long etcetera, and of course, more modern…

Yes, Renoise 3.1 is fine. But let us all let Renoise continue to evolve, even if its development is very slow…I do not want other projects. The market is saturated with them!!!


(Fsus4) #50

Just a new project that I would like: another tracker DAW like Renoise (with another name) powered by Taktik scheduled from scratch, it includes the inheritance of your experience. This is an impossible idea.Because a tracker today does not sell.But I am sure that this programmer, with his current experience, today, currently, would write other Renoise 1.0 in another way, with better code, with more capacity, more resource utilization, better GUI and a long etcetera, and of course, more modern…

Yes, Renoise 3.1 is fine. But let us all let Renoise continue to evolve, even if its development is very slow…I do not want other projects. The market is saturated with them!!!

Raul, unfortunately you express yourself in a way that’s somewhat hard to decode.

For me it’s perfectly clear that an open source stripped down “engine” version of Renoise (i.e. excl. native DSP coded by others than taktik, etc) would serve as catalyst for the official Renoise project, still developed and maintained by taktik – either alone or together with new devs. It’s a coding lab where users can flesh out their C++ classes, discuss them with others, and possibly inspire taktik to implement these or similar adapted concepts, functionsand solutions. The point is: the official compiled Renoise would notbe the same as the open source compiled versions by third parties.

Let’s just add here that there are also otherpossibilities in regard to taktik’s development even without such open model. Suppose for example that we as a community managed to crowd-fund an additional coder to assist taktik (assuming he would welcome that). Would that be possible in your world or is itjust “taktik-only-forever-other-projects-never”?


(Raul (ulneiz)) #51

@Fsus4. I think Taktik is not willing to do what you propose.If you reduce it all, the only “problem” is the wishes of this programmer, the only programer of Renoise actually.Do not get your head warmed.

Stop thinking about my opinions for a moment… Maybe if Renoise had more pull, more hook, would be worth trying things like the one you propose.But if this program is designed in this way, with maintenance and slow development, because it does not give more of itself as a business, little can be expected with changing the business model.Do you know some people, programmers, who are interested in using their time in Renoise? No interest!This program is from Taktik, and it is very likely that when he is not there, Renoise will stop developing.

The only way to do what you want, is to convince Taktik, contacting him directly, and honestly, I think you have it very difficult…Because it is necessary to have a legion of interested in this subject. I hope you understand me now.There is no choice but to wait patiently for him to invest more time in Renoise.That means not using time on other projects.

I really do not know what you want.Ask in these forums how many people would be willing to pay moreto boost the development of Renoise, with more programmers and more resources.You’re going to be alone, and it’s because there’s a wall between what customers want and what Taktik wants.He is busy on another project now (nothing related to Renoise), he is not going to waste time on isolated requests.

In fact, it is impossible to agree to 10 people from this forum for such your plan. Try it!I do not want to discourage you.My opinion or desire does not matter and your opinion or desire either, they are isolated things which disappear soon.

Would that be possible in your world or is itjust “taktik-only-forever-other-projects-never”?

Why do you ask that?Taktik will do whatever he wants.Our opinions do not matter anything.If you want to know my own opinion… I would prefer that Taktik only program for Renoise and along with more programmers, a decent team.Because there are hundreds of programmers working on other audio (or video) programs, and the market is saturated.What reason would want to Taktik use your talent in another project unrelated to Renoise?Why does he learn more?

In short, it is not about our opinions or wishes. Here is a common element: Taktik and his way of thinking and the pull of Renoise faced with public opinion.I wish there were a madman lined with money to buy Renoise’s rights and start a company with 10 full-time programmers to develop Renoise.But that will not happen even in the best dreams.

Ignore my opinions and follow your ideas.Maybe you will find support to convince Taktik. Good luck! :smiley:


(d3lectro) #52

Ive compared different DAWs (like many people here i think) and i always fall back to renoise-tracker. For me it is the most easy and directest way to make my ideas become true. Maybe because ive started making music with trackers :D. However- i would love to see that some of the great feature-requests from you all will find their way into an update. Hopefully this will happen :slight_smile:


(Fsus4) #53

We all agree Renoise is a product we love and fall back too from time to time (if it’s not our primary DAW). The problem here is more about Renoise being developedfor 15 years to become what it is today, and there seems to benoway we make things go faster in terms of development. Quite the contrary, in 2017 thereis only one active developer, maintaining Renoise, Redux and a new secret project we don’t know anything about yet.

@Raul: I don’t need to convince taktik, reality will knock on his door and do the job for me.


(Raul (ulneiz)) #54

Well, we have reached the final conclusion. It all depends on Taktik and his way of thinking.I think that answers what is happening today.

@Fsus4.Maybe Taktik does not care about this situation.When he pleases, he will return, and will do whatever he wants or decides.In these forums it has been proven many times that certain customer requests will never be added, such as audio tracks, pianoroll and all that. What is the reason?Supposedly, Taktik will not want to.Moreover, the situation that you proposewith third party developers, already could exist with Danoise, or DBlue, programming also under the bonnet of Renoise. And that does not happen, perhaps because Taktik acts as a brake.

The current stage looks like the following (“seems” because there is nothing official, just some comments from Taktik in the forums months ago), speculating:

  1. Taktik is working on another “great mysterious project” unrelated to Renoise. That’s why there’s nothing new about Renoise these days…
  2. Renoise 3.1.1 in this year?: small update with bug fix.In my opinion, it should have been out months ago, because it only corrects errors.
  3. Renoise 3.2.0 in 2018-2020, 2022? with new plan included: serious update with GUI for high resolutions and other important things, according to Taktik’s comments,January 17, it will only touch the current GUI to adapt it to high resolutions, not a new code for the GUI to work better, using vector images, for example. Currently, Renoise uses small PNG images on the icons. And the tools are a brake for Renoise to evolve as it should, when they should not.
  4. Renoise 3.2.1 with error corrections in 2022-2024???
  5. Renoise 4.0.0 in 2040??? …an important version every 2-3 years

I hope Renoise 3.2.0 marks a before and after with a new GUI with new code, not based on the old GUI of 3.1.0, to mark and guide the future of this DAW.GUI with a vision of the future, not with vision to preserve the past…


(Raul (ulneiz)) #55

Ive compared different DAWs (like many people here i think) and i always fall back to renoise-tracker. For me it is the most easy and directest way to make my ideas become true. Maybe because ive started making music with trackers :D. However- i would love to see that some of the great feature-requests from you all will find their way into an update. Hopefully this will happen :slight_smile:

I think there are a lot of people in the same situation.If you know how to handle Renoise well, you end up coming back, although some disappear because they are tired of the situation and the wait.The other DAWs are more powerful and modern in general, but Renoise has something special that makes you work like a bullet.However, the current situation is delicate.

The rest of DAWs are up to date. Watch Cubase 9, FL Studio 12, S1 3, Bitwig 2, etc. With a team of development and marqueting quite good. It is increasingly easier to handle them. I’ve noticed it with FL Studio 12 and Bitwig 2. It’s easier to work with them faster. If Renoise does not raise her head, she’s going to run out of customers… and one of the reasons is the ability of the hardware itself, which also evolves.


(Rpnz) #56

Watch Cubase 9, FL Studio 12, S1 3, Bitwig 2, etc.

Those will not offer you a lifetime version for just 75 dollar :slight_smile:


(Raul (ulneiz)) #57

Those will not offer you a lifetime version for just 75 dollar :slight_smile:

True! But it is a symptom of how far the other companies can offer an powerful software and how far Renoise’s team arrives.In the end everything borders the money. I would not mind paying more for Renoise if it were more advanced and with a larger team of programmers, serious programmers, no amateurs.I would happily pay it, even double what it costs a license.But with the development of the last months/years is impossible.

As a detail, look at the credits of the professionals designers and programmers from other DAWs, for example Bitwig 2, which just came out…While other DAWs are strong, Renoise hanging by a thread.It is true that the programs are different, but it would be great if the users had at least one DAW type tracker in the market that is strong and with a decent team of programmers for their continuous development and maintenance.

Other trackers are commented on, but they do not measure up or are considered competition, like Buzz, Radium. Look at this: Midi Tracker.It would be great to have a theme with all the small tracker projects currently available. Most seem like small projects of people crazy about trackers. ^_^It’s nice to see these things…


(DJ TerraByte) #58

I deeply respect the one developer Taktik and the situation he’s in.
Thats all I wanted to say :slight_smile:


(Raul (ulneiz)) #59

I deeply respect the one developer Taktik and the situation he’s in.
Thats all I wanted to say :slight_smile:

Yes.

I wish other programmers would think about supporting the project of Renoise and Taktik and form a team with more power. Taktik deserves it for all the effort he has made.Well, it’s on another project now, so the situation does not look bad. It’s only “bad” for composers who use Renoise and want to see more updates. That’s it all. Neither should we be alarmed.There will be more joys! :slight_smile:


(tL One) #60

Those will not offer you a lifetime version for just 75 dollar :slight_smile:

And neither does Renoise… :wink:

You buy now, you stay in the game 3.1 - 4.1

(But nonetheless very fair I would think.)

[EDIT: I suppose you meant lifetime-updates with that statement. As C9, LXP etc also don’t stop to work after x amount of time…]


(Rpnz) #61

And neither does Renoise… :wink:

You buy now, you stay in the game 3.1 - 4.1

(But nonetheless very fair I would think.)

In Renoise terms that means a lifetime. :slight_smile:


(Bungle) #62

In Renoise terms that means a lifetime. :slight_smile:

Renoises lifetime has come and gone, it’s just a tracker, their lifetime was a long time ago, all it needs now is updates to keep it working with current OS.

It will never be popular, music making moved on, and trackers ain’t it.


(Fsus4) #63

A proper visual representation of what I think Renoise is:

So rather than saying Renoise is “just as tracker”, or even “just a tracker with some modern DAW features”, or even “a DAW with advanced tracker featues”, I would suggest that Renoiseis the equivalent of a Swiss Army Knife in the context of audio and composition tools. You fold out the screw driver, andfind that it’s not the professional screw driver for heavy tasks. But nevertheless it’s working just fine asa quick and efficient tool in many situations where you don’t need the pro screw driver. Then you fold out the saw, andagain it doesn’t do all the stuff like you would expect from a really good saw (such as side-chaining, ha ha).

How many of you have experienced that feelingof getting a really nice Swiss Army knife when you were young? I got my first when I was 8 years old, and I still adore this wonderful little “pocket toolbox” as a product concept.I feel somewhat the same for trackers, asI’vebeen using themsince1989. One can’t simply compare such a limited multi-tool with dedicated professional single-tools in the audio industry today, it would be like comparing Renoise’s native reverb devices with the dedicatedreverb plugins out there and say “look, Renoise can’t doexactlywhat thisreverbplugin isdoing”. Duh!!

But on the other hand, for those of us who prefer the tracker way of recording/editing notes and automation, nothing out therecould really compete with Renoise as that sample manglingmulti-tool Swiss Army knife that get’s the job done in one important area, which is: enabling you to be highly creative with audio and having lots of fun in a relatively short amount of time. This is especially true for us who grew up with trackers and have a soft spot forthe concept as such.There will still beusers in 10 years from now thatdemand amature and polishedtracker, just as there are people that are still looking for an even morepolished Swiss Army knife. It’s a niche that taktik has practically "monopolized"with Renoise.

Thenthere are certain applications for Renoise that unleash even more creative potential if you know how to handle things properly.Like for example,running Renoise 3.1 as a ReWire master to control Reason 9.x is a fantastic marriage for both Renoise and Reason.

To take the analogy with the Swiss Army knife further into the realm of programming, compare working with e.g. Python for rapid prototyping rather than working with C++. Nobody would argue that countingto a million inan interpreted language like Python…

for i in range(0, 1000000):
print(i)

…could rival the speed that same count would take forcompiledC++ code:

#include
using namespace std;

int main(void)
{
for(int i=0; i<=1e6; i++)
cout << i << endl;
return 0;
}

Right? Well, the thing is that on another level and another perspectivethat in turn really depends on what criteria you’re actually using to measure “speed” here. Just take a closer look at those two code examples above to get this point. Same with the discussion about Renoise vs. other contemporary DAWs, it all depends on the criteria and what you’retrying to do.


(Bungle) #64

Think what you like, Renoise is just a tracker, that’s why it is not particularly popular, that is why it is a hobby project for the developer, trackers days are long gone, now it is like a classic car, needs a little work here and there now and then, but other than that it wont change much.


(ffx) #65


(Raul (ulneiz)) #66

@ffx. I like his comparison with theSwiss Army Knife… very appropriate.However, it should not be forgotten that Renoise already has more than 16 years of life, enough time to consider perfecting some areas, instead of adding little things letting forget existing things…That means seeing what is currently available and acting accordingly.This is not to compare Renoise with other DAWs products on the market. But perhaps it can be inspirational to improve Renoise.

And I disagree, Renoise can be compared to any DAW. In some things it is better, and in others it is worse.Most DAWs also have their defects, and some serious ones according to the user who uses them.But they have the right approach: if it is a DAW with a multitude of tools, review each one to improve it as much as possible.Renoise 3.1 can be found at that point now.Yes, it is possible to add more things, but instead it would be positive to improve what is already there.

@Bungle, Renoise is not a simple tracker, calling it that way is a serious mistake.I wonder if you’ve used this program in depth and still think the same thing.A tracker could be FastTracker, Impulse Tracker, MilkyTracker, ModPlug Tracker, ProTracker, MadTracker, etc… these are trackers.Renoise plays in another league.However, I think the same thing, Renoise will not change much. I do not see a Taktik investing much time in it.However, I firmly believe that the trackers will never disappear. They are very useful programs. But it is sufficient to have a complete DAW tracker to satisfy your users.Renoise is there, and can continue to evolve…

Milkytracker

ModPlugTracker (OpenMPT)

MadTracker

SVATracker

SoundTracker

Psycle

screenshot4.jpg

There are many more. The vast majority with a GUI from the nineties, small projects of tracker, and that many are updated to this day…


(Bungle) #67

Don’t try and put words in my moutrh, I said it is just a tracker, I never said it is a simple tracker, do not misqoute people to fit your agenda, that is disgusting behaviour in a forum.


(Raul (ulneiz)) #68

Don’t try and put words in my moutrh, I said it is just a tracker, I never said it is a simple tracker, do not misqoute people to fit your agenda, that is disgusting behaviour in a forum.

…“is just a tracker”… If you do not like my opinion, it is your problem.

Sorry, but Renoise is not a tracker, it is much more than that!!!That is my discrepancy, I do not consider that Renoise is just a tracker.

Do not get carried away by the word “simple”, but what if you use the word “DAW”?Does that sound right?I shared some pictures with you too, so you can compare.

It was just a comment, Bungle…

I agree, sometimes there are unpleasant comments in the forums.