Renoise update?Whats going on?

[Fsus4]

Yes,Taktik is a genius

Well, to quote a genius on that issue: “Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration.”

I would agree taktik is"somewhat" of a genius in this sense, he knows the value of making something solid and well crafted,hehas proven himself tooperate from time to time in that 99% perspirationfield.So what’s the deal?

OK,let’stake somebody else as an example here… Let’s take for example a guy such as John Carmack, who in history contributedhisshare to the development of the gaming industry as it is today. What’s really great about John Carmack? Is it his work in binary space partitioning?Is it his surface caching?The z-fail stencil shadows a.k.a. Carmack’s Reverse? The popular games he was involved in? Well, all of those things surely require lots of perspiration. But what I personally think is the greatest act fromCarmack is that he decided to release his"children" (such as the Doom 3 engine) as open source.

Now I’m not saying that taktik should simply release Renoise as open source and then walk away from the project, while pursuing his interests inother projects.He hassuggested himself that there are some issues involved that makes sucha movedifficult.(We don’t know what exactly, but let’s guess it’s about third party closed code andlegalissues thatsimply can’tbephasedoutwithout renderingthe rest of Renoise dysfunctional.)

But I do hope that he’ll consider the actualgains and possibilities frommoving ina directionwherenew license modelscould arise. and taktikmaking more $$$ onroyalities from such new license modelsin regard to the “Renoise engine” than selling individuals copies of Renoise. Doesn’t have to be open source, could be “closed source” on a license. The important thing here is tosee the potential and business value of derivativeproducts.

[Fsus4]

But some of you are bent on casting more dirt, as if you wanted to see him dead. We all know that Taktik is doing another project. When it finishes it will return, it will launch a version with correction of errors (many of them are already solved!) and soon it will take time for another version with more improvements of weight.But I do not like that defeatist attitude of Taktik, because it ends up disappointing his clients. Just read these forums from time to time. It is depressing!

Now this is taking things a bit too far, don’t you think? Whoare these users that "some of you"is referring to, exactly? Who is throwing dirt? I only see a few impatient users who want feature XYZ and fail to wait several more years for it, hence theyget frustrated and disappointed and leave Renoise for other tools that offerfeature XYZ orwhatever.But I’ve never seen anybody, either in these forums or elsewhere, that has been “casting dirt, as if [they] wanted to see [Renoise’s developer] dead” (!). WTF?? That kind ofphrasing isjust injecting guilt by association type offallacies into the conversation here and adds little of constructive value.

Quite the contrary, I’ve never seen anybody hold any axe against taktik since 2002. He is most highly appreciated and valued asthe creator and developer of Renoise, and nobody would probably ever want anything bad to happen to him. Maybe if he locked himself up in a dark cave and treated Renoise in a Gollum-style “My precioussss…” manner,for sure many Renoise users would be concerned if he was OK and wish he would change his mind about that attitude, but never everwould anyone wish him any harm just because he didn’t fully commit to being a 24/7 Renoise developer slave.

Now I represent theviewthatit’s refreshing that taktikis going all-in for other projects.The next scenario I’m hoping foris that taktik will flourish with many more succesful new products whileopening the doors to Renoise and license the “Renoise engine” for derivative products by driven and innovative third parties. Doesn’t have to be open source, could be a closed source B2B developer license – or something in between. Could also be a slimmed Renoise version, offering just VST/AU effect and instrumentcapabilites but removing the native DSP,sampler andwave file mangling stuff.

Isimply see no point inupholdinga “have faith” line, attributing saint/genius status to taktik and in general trying to avoid rocking the boat (“uh-huh, let’s not scarethe fragile taktik away!”), hoping that if we just pray and give it enoughtime, non-pressure and blind optimism willmotivate taktiktopick upand prioritzieRenoise development once again after that"other" project is “finished”.

I just prefer being constructive, realistic and look at the greater potential and possibilities of things, that’s all. So let’s wait and see what that new secret project is about and then return to this discussion at a later point.

[Raul (Raul (ulneiz))]

@Fsus4, Wow, I mean Renoise (the software), not Taktik! (Renoise dead),do not misunderstand, maybe I did not explain well.It is the attitude of some, as if everything was already done and perfect, when it is not so.Or by implying that you can do nothing, when everything is simpler. When Taktik has time, go back and continue developing Renoise, as he sees fit. There is no more history.The fact that renoise 3.1 is fine, does not imply that it can not be better.And while some consider Taktik a genius, he also has his way of thinking, and maybe because of that, some are not satisfied with this software and look for alternatives.

Regarding the license you comment, I do not think Taktik is willing to do so.He will have his way of thinking and his obsessions. If you have not already, he will not, never.And regarding pressure, read these forums in the last 4 months, you will see if there has been pressure or not.But one thing seems clear. Taktik will do whatever he wants, whether you press or pray to the saint.If you want to see this software evolve, you just need to be patient, it is not a matter of faith, simply trusting your only current programmer and in his word. If you want push or press, I wish you luck, some of us are tired already.

In fact, when ToybOx started the thread, the story was repeated again.Some laughing because they know what happens and see that others do not know, because there is no official information, it’s all speculation.Others talking nonsense.This is not new. These forums are like this, and so on.

But there is a way to be useful. Find bugs and notify.This will improve the software.There is nothing worse than leaving a finished version full of bugs…

Now I represent theviewthatit’s refreshing that taktikis going all-in for other projects.The next scenario I’m hoping foris that taktik will flourish with many more succesful new products whileopening the doors to Renoise and license the “Renoise engine” for derivative products by driven and innovative third parties. Doesn’t have to be open source, could be a closed source B2B developer license – or something in between. Could also be a slimmed Renoise version, offering just VST/AU effect and instrumentcapabilites but removing the native DSP,sampler andwave file mangling stuff.

What if Taktik is still with Renoise and does the software continue to improve? If he use his time for other projects, then you will see Renoise really dead, that’s what the whole is discussing all the time.If we talk about desires, I just want one thing, for Taktik to come back with Renoise. Any exterior project delays its development or maintenance (it is what is happening now).Stop licensing, other projects, and continue to develop Renoise.Another thing is whether desires can come true.I prefer that Taktik invested in Renoise and stop the nonsense. Only then will Renoise improve, as it has until now.

[Roppenzo (Rpnz)]

Guys… the good news about all this is:

Your license is valid for one full version. For example, if you start with Renoise 2.7 you’ll get free updates up to and including 3.7. Our point releases pack features, not just maintenance updates. Check out our release notes and see for yourself what great value this represents.

This means at this developement speed… a whole lifetime

[Raul (Raul (ulneiz))]

Guys… the good news about all this is:

This means at this developement speed… a whole lifetime

^_^Fortunately!

[Fsus4]

What if Taktik is still with Renoise and does the software continue to improve? If he use his time for other projects, then you will see Renoise really dead, that’s what the whole is discussing all the time.If we talk about desires, I just want one thing, for Taktik to come back with Renoise. Any exterior project delays its development or maintenance (it is what is happening now).Stop licensing, other projects, and continue to develop Renoise.Another thing is whether desires can come true.I prefer that Taktik invested in Renoise and stop the nonsense. Only then will Renoise improve, as it has until now.

OK, so let’s break down this opinion:

1. If taktikspends his time on other projects than Renoise, then Renoise is really dead.

2. Raul desires one thing: The Return of Taktik to spend all his time on Renoise.

3. Any other project except Renoise is BAD.

4. Raulwants taktik to put anENDto other projects andSTOP THE NONSENSE.

Here is my opinion, in contrast:

1. If taktik spends his time on other projects than Renoise, that’s his choice and none of our business.

2. If taktik spends time on other audio projects, chances are high that those projects will add something of value.

3. It’s refreshing to switch projects, try out new stuff, get out of the loop. Get some new perspectives (and customers?).

4. Fsus4hopes taktikwill go OPEN SOURCEwith Renoise, or at least LICENSE a stripped down engine version for B2B.

And now I’m going to eat some pizza while playing around in Bitwig 2.1 with my Renoise 3.1 rendered loops.

BONUS -Fsus4’sLate NightPhilosophical Question:

Imagine if Bitwig or Presonus or Steinberg or any other DAW maker out there offered taktik a job:

“We want that Renoise tracker concept integrated intoour product for reasons X, Y, Z. We pay twice what you earn today.”

Should taktik accept or decline?

[joule]

Fsus4, Decline. Much time is invested and the value for the other product would be much higher (?).

Current revenue is probably the least important factor to consider in such a deal, I’m guessing.

[Fsus4]

Well, consider “twice what you earn” the total net income of all sorts,including other day time jobs. Revenue from Renoise/Redux sales being just one of them.

[Raul (Raul (ulneiz))]

@Fsus4,do not exaggerate and read the context.It’s very simple. Taktik is he just keeping Renoise (Taktik alone). If he is not, there will be no more Renoise.Investing time in other projects is not investing in Renoise.It is not about doing complicated operations, it’s not about using all the time. But he is alone, he can not work miracles.Some want Renoise to keep moving. That is all.

Nor is it to destroy opinions or to think that a desire is an imposition.Now the only programmer who has Renoise is spending time on another project. That other project is not Renoise. Meanwhile, Renoise is “parked”. Simply that.

And frankly, as Renoise’s client, I care less about other projects. I’m only interested in Renoise and its future, because I want to continue using it, but if it has better features and fewer errors, better, for everyone.

For example, when Redux was developed, it was a topic I did not like. Because that time invested in Redux, it could have been to have a Renoise 3.2, for example, better, with better features. Examples: better code, less errors, better GUI, better area of automation, more functions here and there to improve other areas of work and things like that. I do not think it’s crazy at all.It is perfectly feasible.Redux is of no use if you have Renoise as the main DAW. It’s fine for other DAWs, but I’m not interested.Maybe my opinion does not please you, but that’s how we all are, with different opinions, all respectable.

Well, I’ll answer:

Here is my opinion, in contrast:

1. If taktik spends his time on other projects than Renoise, that’s his choice and none of our business.

2. If taktik spends time on other audio projects, chances are high that those projects will add something of value.

3. It’s refreshing to switch projects, try out new stuff, get out of the loop. Get some new perspectives (and customers?).

4. Fsus4hopes taktikwill go OPEN SOURCEwith Renoise, or at least LICENSE a stripped down engine version for B2B.

No one has said otherwise.I hope that Taktik will invest more time in Renoise. He will do whatever he wants, of course.Taktik is only as a programmer, as he reported…
2.
That’s fine if Renoise was backed by a small or medium-sized business with multiple programmers (2-4 programmers). If the only programmer is elsewhere, Renoise stagnates (it’s happening these months).
3.
The only feasible way to get more customers for Renoise is that Renoise is a better software.There are many alternatives.What do you want other projects for?The market is very saturated.But there is only one decent DAW as a tracker, which is Renoise.You need to pamper him like a baby, and leave the nonsense to one side.
4.
Maybe he prefers to keep full control of his software, there is no need to do it, because there are plans to keep this program as of now, little by little.

Just a new project that I would like: another tracker DAW like Renoise (with another name) powered by Taktik scheduled from scratch, it includes the inheritance of your experience. This is an impossible idea.Because a tracker today does not sell.But I am sure that this programmer, with his current experience, today, currently, would write other Renoise 1.0 in another way, with better code, with more capacity, more resource utilization, better GUI and a long etcetera, and of course, more modern…

Yes, Renoise 3.1 is fine. But let us all let Renoise continue to evolve, even if its development is very slow…I do not want other projects. The market is saturated with them!!!

[Fsus4]

Just a new project that I would like: another tracker DAW like Renoise (with another name) powered by Taktik scheduled from scratch, it includes the inheritance of your experience. This is an impossible idea.Because a tracker today does not sell.But I am sure that this programmer, with his current experience, today, currently, would write other Renoise 1.0 in another way, with better code, with more capacity, more resource utilization, better GUI and a long etcetera, and of course, more modern…

Yes, Renoise 3.1 is fine. But let us all let Renoise continue to evolve, even if its development is very slow…I do not want other projects. The market is saturated with them!!!

Raul, unfortunately you express yourself in a way that’s somewhat hard to decode.

For me it’s perfectly clear that an open source stripped down “engine” version of Renoise (i.e. excl. native DSP coded by others than taktik, etc) would serve as catalyst for the official Renoise project, still developed and maintained by taktik – either alone or together with new devs. It’s a coding lab where users can flesh out their C++ classes, discuss them with others, and possibly inspire taktik to implement these or similar adapted concepts, functionsand solutions. The point is: the official compiled Renoise would notbe the same as the open source compiled versions by third parties.

Let’s just add here that there are also otherpossibilities in regard to taktik’s development even without such open model. Suppose for example that we as a community managed to crowd-fund an additional coder to assist taktik (assuming he would welcome that). Would that be possible in your world or is itjust “taktik-only-forever-other-projects-never”?

[Raul (Raul (ulneiz))]

@Fsus4. I think Taktik is not willing to do what you propose.If you reduce it all, the only “problem” is the wishes of this programmer, the only programer of Renoise actually.Do not get your head warmed.

Stop thinking about my opinions for a moment… Maybe if Renoise had more pull, more hook, would be worth trying things like the one you propose.But if this program is designed in this way, with maintenance and slow development, because it does not give more of itself as a business, little can be expected with changing the business model.Do you know some people, programmers, who are interested in using their time in Renoise? No interest!This program is from Taktik, and it is very likely that when he is not there, Renoise will stop developing.

The only way to do what you want, is to convince Taktik, contacting him directly, and honestly, I think you have it very difficult…Because it is necessary to have a legion of interested in this subject. I hope you understand me now.There is no choice but to wait patiently for him to invest more time in Renoise.That means not using time on other projects.

I really do not know what you want.Ask in these forums how many people would be willing to pay moreto boost the development of Renoise, with more programmers and more resources.You’re going to be alone, and it’s because there’s a wall between what customers want and what Taktik wants.He is busy on another project now (nothing related to Renoise), he is not going to waste time on isolated requests.

In fact, it is impossible to agree to 10 people from this forum for such your plan. Try it!I do not want to discourage you.My opinion or desire does not matter and your opinion or desire either, they are isolated things which disappear soon.

Would that be possible in your world or is itjust “taktik-only-forever-other-projects-never”?

Why do you ask that?Taktik will do whatever he wants.Our opinions do not matter anything.If you want to know my own opinion… I would prefer that Taktik only program for Renoise and along with more programmers, a decent team.Because there are hundreds of programmers working on other audio (or video) programs, and the market is saturated.What reason would want to Taktik use your talent in another project unrelated to Renoise?Why does he learn more?

In short, it is not about our opinions or wishes. Here is a common element: Taktik and his way of thinking and the pull of Renoise faced with public opinion.I wish there were a madman lined with money to buy Renoise’s rights and start a company with 10 full-time programmers to develop Renoise.But that will not happen even in the best dreams.

Ignore my opinions and follow your ideas.Maybe you will find support to convince Taktik. Good luck!

[d3lectro]

Ive compared different DAWs (like many people here i think) and i always fall back to renoise-tracker. For me it is the most easy and directest way to make my ideas become true. Maybe because ive started making music with trackers :D. However- i would love to see that some of the great feature-requests from you all will find their way into an update. Hopefully this will happen

[Fsus4]

We all agree Renoise is a product we love and fall back too from time to time (if it’s not our primary DAW). The problem here is more about Renoise being developedfor 15 years to become what it is today, and there seems to benoway we make things go faster in terms of development. Quite the contrary, in 2017 thereis only one active developer, maintaining Renoise, Redux and a new secret project we don’t know anything about yet.

@Raul: I don’t need to convince taktik, reality will knock on his door and do the job for me.

[Raul (Raul (ulneiz))]

Well, we have reached the final conclusion. It all depends on Taktik and his way of thinking.I think that answers what is happening today.

@Fsus4.Maybe Taktik does not care about this situation.When he pleases, he will return, and will do whatever he wants or decides.In these forums it has been proven many times that certain customer requests will never be added, such as audio tracks, pianoroll and all that. What is the reason?Supposedly, Taktik will not want to.Moreover, the situation that you proposewith third party developers, already could exist with Danoise, or DBlue, programming also under the bonnet of Renoise. And that does not happen, perhaps because Taktik acts as a brake.

The current stage looks like the following (“seems” because there is nothing official, just some comments from Taktik in the forums months ago), speculating:

1. Taktik is working on another “great mysterious project” unrelated to Renoise. That’s why there’s nothing new about Renoise these days…
2. Renoise 3.1.1 in this year?: small update with bug fix.In my opinion, it should have been out months ago, because it only corrects errors.
3. Renoise 3.2.0 in 2018-2020, 2022? with new plan included: serious update with GUI for high resolutions and other important things, according to Taktik’s comments,January 17, it will only touch the current GUI to adapt it to high resolutions, not a new code for the GUI to work better, using vector images, for example. Currently, Renoise uses small PNG images on the icons. And the tools are a brake for Renoise to evolve as it should, when they should not.
4. Renoise 3.2.1 with error corrections in 2022-2024???
5. …
6. Renoise 4.0.0 in 2040??? …an important version every 2-3 years

I hope Renoise 3.2.0 marks a before and after with a new GUI with new code, not based on the old GUI of 3.1.0, to mark and guide the future of this DAW.GUI with a vision of the future, not with vision to preserve the past…

[Raul (Raul (ulneiz))]

Ive compared different DAWs (like many people here i think) and i always fall back to renoise-tracker. For me it is the most easy and directest way to make my ideas become true. Maybe because ive started making music with trackers :D. However- i would love to see that some of the great feature-requests from you all will find their way into an update. Hopefully this will happen

I think there are a lot of people in the same situation.If you know how to handle Renoise well, you end up coming back, although some disappear because they are tired of the situation and the wait.The other DAWs are more powerful and modern in general, but Renoise has something special that makes you work like a bullet.However, the current situation is delicate.

The rest of DAWs are up to date. Watch Cubase 9, FL Studio 12, S1 3, Bitwig 2, etc. With a team of development and marqueting quite good. It is increasingly easier to handle them. I’ve noticed it with FL Studio 12 and Bitwig 2. It’s easier to work with them faster. If Renoise does not raise her head, she’s going to run out of customers… and one of the reasons is the ability of the hardware itself, which also evolves.

[Roppenzo (Rpnz)]

Watch Cubase 9, FL Studio 12, S1 3, Bitwig 2, etc.

Those will not offer you a lifetime version for just 75 dollar

[Raul (Raul (ulneiz))]

Those will not offer you a lifetime version for just 75 dollar

True! But it is a symptom of how far the other companies can offer an powerful software and how far Renoise’s team arrives.In the end everything borders the money. I would not mind paying more for Renoise if it were more advanced and with a larger team of programmers, serious programmers, no amateurs.I would happily pay it, even double what it costs a license.But with the development of the last months/years is impossible.

As a detail, look at the credits of the professionals designers and programmers from other DAWs, for example Bitwig 2, which just came out…While other DAWs are strong, Renoise hanging by a thread.It is true that the programs are different, but it would be great if the users had at least one DAW type tracker in the market that is strong and with a decent team of programmers for their continuous development and maintenance.

Other trackers are commented on, but they do not measure up or are considered competition, like Buzz, Radium. Look at this: Midi Tracker.It would be great to have a theme with all the small tracker projects currently available. Most seem like small projects of people crazy about trackers. ^_^It’s nice to see these things…

Expedance - Sunrise - New MIDI Tracker Trance Track

[DJ_TerraByte]

I deeply respect the one developer Taktik and the situation he’s in.
Thats all I wanted to say

[Raul (Raul (ulneiz))]

I deeply respect the one developer Taktik and the situation he’s in.
Thats all I wanted to say

Yes.

I wish other programmers would think about supporting the project of Renoise and Taktik and form a team with more power. Taktik deserves it for all the effort he has made.Well, it’s on another project now, so the situation does not look bad. It’s only “bad” for composers who use Renoise and want to see more updates. That’s it all. Neither should we be alarmed.There will be more joys!

[Lytz1 (tL One)]

Those will not offer you a lifetime version for just 75 dollar

And neither does Renoise…

You buy now, you stay in the game 3.1 - 4.1

(But nonetheless very fair I would think.)

[EDIT: I suppose you meant lifetime-updates with that statement. As C9, LXP etc also don’t stop to work after x amount of time…]