Renoise vs FL Studio

ffx · September 20, 2015, 2:08pm

It was meant to be a silly joke… Since I almost always use VSTs, the sound shouldn’t differ at all. I don’t think that Renoise’s internal fx lacks of quality.

I also do not agree with you, gova. Aliasing doesn’t sound “warm”. If you add a cheap bit/rate reducer without interpolation (almost no fx have this), even on 22khz it will sound like straight out a toilet.

Yesterday, and before we discussed this already in IRC. I summarize this here. (My) subjective perception of warmth is dependent on:

~~The kind of harmonics, even vs. odd. Seems to me that for example harmonics near octaves sound quite good. Could be wrong~~.
The output rate. Maybe it’s only me, but 48khz can hurt your ears in a very digital way, while 32khz output, like Korg M1/01w or Novation Nova etc. have, simply cannot produce or resonate at such high frequencies (max. half samplerate for those who don’t know). They sound more smooth at least to my ears. It’s maybe some kind of retro-like perspective. Even if I resample a track from 48khz to 44,1khz, it sounds “more common” afterwards due missing highs.
You can add a 8p butter worth LP filter on most instruments to let them sound more smooth / “warm”. But it’s not the filter which is important:
The real analog warmth (now the truth) comes from various factors like: Slightly detuning OSCs in a non predictable way (so not just sine/tri), slightly ADSR variations etc. Analog sound never sounds static.
EDIT: Phase variations e.g. free osc

There is a quite interesting kvr thread diva vs. analogue (real OB8).

EDIT: Ok, I am confused here. Since melda’s synth hasn’t aliasing at all, but sounds very cold, You could indeed say the aliasing sounds more warm. But isn’t it more about harmonics? Does an analog gear produce any aliasing?

Maybe I am totally wrong. What’s your opinion?

Bit_Arts · September 20, 2015, 2:26pm

FL Studio’s mixer has some kind of invisible built-in limiter. It squashes everything and makes it sound terrible. Try to clip anything in there. It’s impossible. Not saying clipping sounds great but I want full control over my dynamic range!

Btw… since FL comes with its own optional ASIO driver (FL Studio ASIO), you can choose between hard-clipping at 0db or limiting for that driver. Still, anything beyond 0db isn’t in your dynamic range anymore anyway.

LedgerNote · October 4, 2015, 2:18am

That song reminded me so much “I’m the Firestarter! Twisted Firestarter!”

Yeah, FL Studio is a great place to get started. It helped me wrap my mind around the concept of piano rolls and MIDI instrumentation. But it’s not real conducive to much beyond very very basic music theory and simple rhythms. And those default sound fonts…

LegendaryTaunt · October 6, 2015, 8:56pm

King of the Shortcuts

Right. I’ve thought about making a vid on Renoise and even though I’ve been using this thing for years, I just haven’t mastered all of the keyboard shortcuts that fast yet.

Nfactory · October 7, 2015, 10:38am

I started on Amiga so Renoise has always been natural to me… Iv managed to ween a few people off FL in my time ha. But you do get that inevitable slack jawed look when they see the hex code going up and down. Once you get into renoise there is no going back. FL also comes with a lot of useless crap to justify its price. l like that Renoise team have never over populated the native vst effects but rather improved them with each version. Cool Beans to anyone using FL tho, its what ever gets the best tunes out of you that counts.

gentleclockdivider · October 23, 2015, 7:18pm

I played a bit with fl studio 12 and I am impressed by the sheer quaity of the convolution reverb , also their audio editing program ‘edison’ is fantastic .

The overall gui is better, but it’s obvious that gol has this weird fetish for candylike , bevelled buttons , and japanese manga girls …

The transport bar look like a big sugarcane …

Now if only they would have a nice tracker interface …

Funny note , the imagine line headquartes are 1km away from where I live …in gent …

gentleclockdivider · October 23, 2015, 7:24pm

FL Studio’s mixer has some kind of invisible built-in limiter. It squashes everything and makes it sound terrible. Try to clip anything in there. It’s impossible. Not saying clipping sounds great but I want full control over my dynamic range!

No, it does not .

There’ a limiter on by default …turn it off.

I did numerous test importing/exporting audio files in fl studio .

They null with every other daw .

but you have to leave the pattern volume pots to -5db , which is odd

ffx · October 23, 2015, 7:31pm

I will wait for FLStudio 12 OSX! And then maybe buy it as secondary DAW. I am looking for a Cubase replacement. What I like that image line seems to be consist of freaks like the Renoise team. That’s promising and ensures change and creativity. Also the v12 looks awesome, regarding features and flexibility.

… but it’s obvious that gol has this weird fetish for candylike , bevelled buttons , and japanese manga girls …

The transport bar look like a big sugarcane …

Haha well said This is the biggest point that still kind of annoys me in FLStudio. I mean, it still looks like a toy. I prefer the very rational view of Renoise much more, like the mixer (only some features missing). For me, the look and flexibility of the gui are very important, I would say up to 50%.

gentleclockdivider · October 24, 2015, 7:10pm

I will wait for FLStudio 12 OSX! And then maybe buy it as secondary DAW. I am looking for a Cubase replacement. What I like that image line seems to be consist of freaks like the Renoise team. That’s promising and ensures change and creativity. Also the v12 looks awesome, regarding features and flexibility.

I wouldn’t be to sure of that , it is well known that gol , (didier dambrin) pretty much ignores feedback from users .

Raul · October 25, 2015, 12:06pm

Renoise is awesome, very comfortable and fast… until you decide to record some live performance. Then it start sucking ass very hard. I’m not blaming Renoise devs though, they’re doing great job and trackers werenever designed for that. I was trying Ableton and Reaper recently, guess I’ll stick with Reaper for audio recordings + Renoise for drum programming (through Rewire).

Anything you play on a MIDI keyboard instantly turns into a mess. A lot of new note and effect columns are generated, aftertouch and stuff like that go to effect columns, and any note may become recorded into any column, there is no any system behind it. The result is an “unreadable and uneditable mess” (c) gova

1a. If you played a note a bit too early before the first line of a pattern, it will record into a wrong pattern, and sometimes it’s not cool at all.

Recording an instrument (e.g. guitar) is too much of a hassle. Multiple takes are not supported, editing a recorded sample is disjointed from editing the rest of a song.

For some reason automation recorded with MIDI controllers is discrete, one point per line.

I’m sorry! But I disagree with Iwpss.There must be some problem of the user.Or, you do not use either the metronome, notrightly the times, or have latency issues or something, or your computer is slow.

Renoise is so goodliverecording with a MIDI keyboard, which after recording, you press play and it sounds exactly what you touched. Exactly!Renoise is mathematical!

Record delay perfectly ineach pattern!If a note is ahead in the pattern, it is because you play too fast. Ifdelayed, it is because you play too slow,or hardware has latency issues.Renoise has twoliverecording modes.Keep in mind the two buttons live recording belowpattern (Quantize and DSP slides) (button “Q”). Is needed well control the metronome and compass.Then you can sort notes and delays.

Renoise uses multiple columns within a track (only a track) for live recording. If a note occupies a space, it can not be invaded by another noteand always recorded before in the left columnif it is free. Then, Renoise use another column in the same track,preventing overlapping notes.Renoise is not magic, simply do what he is ordered. Everything has a reason.In previous versions the live recording was a problem. Not now!

The principle is to dominate the live recording. It is essential to control the compass!!!you must configure the pattern well (BMP and LPB).Imagine an orchestra conductor with his baton.It depends more on his musical prowess.

Respect to FL StudiovsRenoise.I widely usedthe two programs.I am clear that Renoise is more advanced in many aspects.Renoise is likea"calculator numbers".You have control of those numbers literally.You do not have much control with other DAW.With Renoise you can do whatever you want with any note.If anyone still has problems with Renoise, it’s because you do not know to use it properly, still.

Vector GUI in FL Studio 12is far superior to other DAWs.Renoise carries blocked without evolution since birth.Need a radical change in interface for high screen resolutions.Moreover,Renoiseis almost perfect, can only add more features and improvements, details. Is extremely tidy.FL Studio is a chaos of small windows, like other DAWs.Renoise is a bullet for composing.Everything is always in its place.

I have tried using other DAWs too. And I always end up using Renoise for all.I’ll repeat: Renoise is a fucking tracker!That alone is already superior to other tools for composition.But Renoise is much more than an advanced tracker. We all know.

fladd · October 25, 2015, 12:54pm

I’m sorry! But I disagree with Iwpss.There must be some problem of the user.Or, you do not use either the metronome, notrightly the times, or have latency issues or something, or your computer is slow.

Renoise is so goodliverecording with a MIDI keyboard, which after recording, you press play and it sounds exactly what you touched. Exactly!Renoise is mathematical!

Record delay perfectly ineach pattern!If a note is ahead in the pattern, it is because you play too fast. Ifdelayed, it is because you play too slow,or hardware has latency issues.Renoise has twoliverecording modes.Keep in mind the two buttons live recording belowpattern (Quantize and DSP slides) (button “Q”). Is needed well control the metronome and compass.Then you can sort notes and delays.

Renoise uses multiple columns within a track (only a track) for live recording. If a note occupies a space, it can not be invaded by another noteand always recorded before in the left columnif it is free. Then, Renoise use another column in the same track,preventing overlapping notes.Renoise is not magic, simply do what he is ordered. Everything has a reason.In previous versions the live recording was a problem. Not now!

The principle is to dominate the live recording. It is essential to control the compass!!!you must configure the pattern well (BMP and LPB).Imagine an orchestra conductor with his baton.It depends more on his musical prowess.

Respect to FL StudiovsRenoise.I widely usedthe two programs.I am clear that Renoise is more advanced in many aspects.Renoise is likea"calculator numbers".You have control of those numbers literally.You do not have much control with other DAW.With Renoise you can do whatever you want with any note.If anyone still has problems with Renoise, it’s because you do not know to use it properly, still.

Vector GUI in FL Studio 12is far superior to other DAWs.Renoise carries blocked without evolution since birth.Need a radical change in interface for high screen resolutions.Moreover,Renoiseis almost perfect, can only add more features and improvements, details. Is extremely tidy.FL Studio is a chaos of small windows, like other DAWs.Renoise is a bullet for composing.Everything is always in its place.

I have tried using other DAWs too. And I always end up using Renoise for all.I’ll repeat: Renoise is a fucking tracker!That alone is already superior to other tools for composition.But Renoise is much more than an advanced tracker. We all know.

And I have to disagree with you

First of all, there is this bug:https://forum.renoise.com/t/new-note-columns-created-when-recording-one-shot-samples/41722

Second, even if you manage to record everything into the pattern editor and it sounds exactly the way it did when you recorded it (I never managed to do that with more complex things, e.g. an actual drum part played with my V-drums), then the notes are all over the place! For drums, for instance, the fist kick note might be in column 1, the second in column 4, the third in column 2, then next in column 1 again, and so on and so forth. The same with all the other notes. In a piano roll, if I look for a C-4 amongst all other recorded notes, there is exactly once place (row) where they can be. In Renoise, for every single note, there are 12 potential places they can be. In a piano roll, I look at the pattern, and I have a good idea what is going on. In Renoise, I need to study the pattern for several minutes to figure out what is going on.

So, yes, Renoise is great for composing/programming notes, but NOT for live recording them. And I don’t see why the latter shouldn’t be improved.

ffx · October 25, 2015, 12:55pm

Raul: Hm, ok, if you do really, really multiple times record in very time you may get a good recording result even without live quantization. But somehow renoise lacks of standard midi recording features. Like in advanced editor quantization options, only live!!! (a.k.a. more intelligent raster matching). Or overdub/overwrite is missing. Or live quantization of notes + preserving length (live). etc.

Also changing the behavior of the delay column, like it was suggested some weeks ago (cannot find it, was like delay = 80 is normal + with negative values!) would highly improve post-editing time, imho.

fladd · October 25, 2015, 1:00pm

I should mention that one solution for the column mess is, of course, to record into different tracks. But setting up your midi controller to do that everytime you want to record something is quite something. It would be great to be able to have a template for that or so. So that you can switch between “record into current track” and “record into this specific configuration” with a single toggle, for every connected midi controller.

patmaddox · October 25, 2015, 2:49pm

I should mention that one solution for the column mess is, of course, to record into different tracks. But setting up your midi controller to do that everytime you want to record something is quite something. It would be great to be able to have a template for that or so. So that you can switch between “record into current track” and “record into this specific configuration” with a single toggle, for every connected midi controller.

Yeah, and while that approach probably makes sense for drums, it doesn’t make sense for when you’re playing chords. Of course, there’s always ledger’s note reorder tool.

Raul · October 25, 2015, 3:33pm

And I have to disagree with you

First of all, there is this bug:https://forum.renoise.com/t/new-note-columns-created-when-recording-one-shot-samples/41722

Second, even if you manage to record everything into the pattern editor and it sounds exactly the way it did when you recorded it (I never managed to do that with more complex things, e.g. an actual drum part played with my V-drums), then the notes are all over the place! For drums, for instance, the fist kick note might be in column 1, the second in column 4, the third in column 2, then next in column 1 again, and so on and so forth. The same with all the other notes. In a piano roll, if I look for a C-4 amongst all other recorded notes, there is exactly once place (row) where they can be. In Renoise, for every single note, there are 12 potential places they can be. In a piano roll, I look at the pattern, and I have a good idea what is going on. In Renoise, I need to study the pattern for several minutes to figure out what is going on.

So, yes, Renoise is great for composing/programming notes, but NOT for live recording them. And I don’t see why the latter shouldn’t be improved.

Of course, everything can be improved,evenlive recording with Renoise.Unfortunately we can not have a piano roll on each track,equal to FL Studio (132 notes).And frankly, I prefer Renoise not include a piano roll. I prefer the virtual piano can be placed beneath the pattern editor,as a visual aidand also as a tool for editing with the mouse (click in virtual piano and recorded in the pattern,even in the live recording).

You canplay each line separately, and know exactly what happens immediately, isolating each track.In the new version 3.1, each track will accept up to 12 columns (12 notes, 1 octave)Yes, there is no relationship between the note and the column.

The only thing I can think of is to allocate 9 tracks each associated one octave (would be ten octaves, x12 notes each octave, 120 notes).When recording every note was in place.But this would be a mess for me.

Another idea would be for each note, regardless of the eighth, always write in a column.Then you need to overlay notes.A scheme:

_____________________________________________ TRACK 01 ____ (120 notes, 10 octaves) ____________________________

| C-0 | C#0 | D-0 | D#0 | E-0 | F-0 | F#0 | G-0 | G#0 | A-0 | A#0 | B-0 |

| C-1 | C#1 | D-1 | D#1 | E-1 | F-1 | F#1 | G-1 | G#1 | A-1 | A#1 | B-1 |

… …

| C-8 | C#8 | D-8 | D#8 | E-8 | F-8 | F#8 | G-8 | G#8 | A-8 | A#8 | B-8 |

| C-9 | C#9 | D-9 | D#9 | E-9 | F-9 | F#9 | G-9 | G#9 | A-9 | A#9 | B-9 |

_____________________________________________ TRACK 01 ____ (120 notes, 10 octaves) ____________________________

(virtual piano below the pattern editor**)** https://forum.renoise.com/t/keyboard-in-edit-mix-tab/44501

Perhaps there may be another button to activate the tracking function.

To play live with a MIDI keyboard,each note is written in the corresponding column.The problem would overlapping notes (note OFF): eg C-4 with C-6, or F3 with F-4,in each column…

I really like this idea!So I think that has no felt a pianoroll, but something like this (track automatically organizes the notes, no the octaves).

Apart, only this form of liverecording will allow each track to also use an octave (you would play only an octave at a time).

Someone has talked to taktik or dblue about this theme?If this were possible, it would be great!Everything can be improved in this life! :lol:

Does this idea you like?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Perhaps this idea should be suggestions forum…but overlapping notes will be a problem (Note OFF).

HopefullyRenoiseevolve into this idea, and not adding a pianoroll.

gova · October 25, 2015, 3:53pm

I’m surprised people are oblivious to another form of piano roll commonplace in more than a few daws.

It can only get more tracker than this if the notes would be put into a single column, like in a tracker.

Raul · October 25, 2015, 4:26pm

It has been much discussion about adding a piano roll vertically.I think I prefer something simple, similar to the previous idea.

Now there are 12 columns per track (R3.1), it would be very interesting to arrange the notes in live recording, without developing a pianoroll or something similar with the horizontal route. In other words, integrate the composition in the tracker, simply ordering the notes in the track,without adding anything else.and this would be an optional feature, not conditional.

@gova, do you agree with this?

gova · October 25, 2015, 4:39pm

There were 12 columns per track since longer than I can remember.

Simple ordering can be done with toolrealtime and has been done with tools offline. Wanting to have a major design change optional is in the nature of any major design change, isn’t it though :P?

What I would like is an optional text-free tracker, with selected automation lanes right near the track etc.

But making it so would probably alienate previous piano roll users and the new feature would loose some of its purpose.

Raul · October 25, 2015, 5:52pm

There were 12 columns per track since longer than I can remember.

…

And remember well.Yes, I know.But now,the novelty is that the new versionevery column says “Note” (12 notes, 1 octave is supposed).You can change the name and everything,column name, orassociate it with the name of an instrument ora note.This makes sure that people talk more about recording the notes.

I think as an idea it easy to add, without changing almost nothing inRenoise, can be welcomed.Making big changes itself already is a problem.

Sometimes I thinkhow is possible thanRenoiseTeam does not go crazy with so many suggestions from people.

Each suggestion has to have a big justification,otherwiseit will never be added.But there are also small additions that do not change anything, and do a great job, for example, split the pattern.Another might besort thenotes natively,that works well integrated,live recording, or after recording,an addition that involves including a button;something simple as associating the same note of all octaves to a single column within a track (each column, only accepts ten octaves of each note, eg: Column 01: C-0, C-1, C-2, C-3…C-9)…But there is a problem, overlapping notes.This problem makes the idea is discarded.And so with many ideas,some because they cost too much work, others because they do not work well at 100%…

Raul · October 25, 2015, 8:55pm

Raul: Hm, ok, if you do really, really multiple times record in very time you may get a good recording result even without live quantization. But somehow renoise lacks of standard midi recording features. Like in advanced editor quantization options, only live!!! (a.k.a. more intelligent raster matching). Or overdub/overwrite is missing. Or live quantization of notes + preserving length (live). etc.

Also changing the behavior of the delay column, like it was suggested some weeks ago (cannot find it, was like delay = 80 is normal + with negative values!) would highly improve post-editing time, imho.

I do not usually ask overly.When I compose, I use a lot of live recording. I need.

I like the soundtrackstyle music, orchestral,with many nuances,also new age, trance and progressive.Therefore, I use the live recording many times.But I have enough.I justregisteran instrument 01, I record with keyboard Midi and metronome, live. Then I grab other instrument 02 and other track separatelyand I repeat the steps.After I fixnotes, delays, velocitiessetc. adjusting.But before we start I already know what will be the resultin most occasions.With R3.1 I can already do this.

But add more MIDI controls would also be interesting. I think they’re working on it in this days.Secondly, atracker (Pattern Editor in live recording) who can identify the notes and order natively would be great!Renoise can still improve a lot.but I am very satisfied with what is already there.Renoise I just hope it does not become a heavy DAW with thousands of things, some redundant.