Send FX, pre and post

Ideas & suggestions
1

Hey folks,

I’m surprised to have just heard of this software and it looks cool as hell, I’m well keen to learn it and see what the tracker style of workflow brings.

I’m new here so would just like to say hello and give a bit of a background before I ask about this, in part to show I understand routing/software etc. Also worried my first post seems a bit negative it’s just that it’s an important feature to me and I’m wondering if it’s ever going to be implemented.

Have been making music for years now, but have never used a tracker and would love to get into it. I’ve used and am competent with all the standard DAWs like Cubase, Reason, Ableton etc.

I also love analog gear. I’ve got 2 Doepfer Dark Energy synths, Korg MS-20 mini, Vermona Perfourmer, MFB 522 Drum Machine, A-100 Modular System with various weird and wonderful modules. This is all hooked up to a mixer which has various inserts and sends hooked up, e.g. moogerfooger, Big Muff etc. Some of the patching we do is insane, like routing audio from the PC, through the MS-20, which is being modulated at the same time by a dark energy riff going through a wave shaper module which is being modulated by an lfo module which is… you get the idea :slight_smile:

Soooo…

From reading old forum posts and trying the Renoise demo, the mixer seems to work differently to anything I’ve ever encountered. Some of the posts seemed to overcomplicate this so I’ma gonna keep it simple.

Example, in non-tracker type DAW e.g. ableton:

Drum track > compressor as insert > reverb send. I adjust the track’s volume in the mixer and the amount of returned reverb changes relative to it. The amount of compression on the drum stays the same. A I can stick as many insert fx into the track as I like, safe in the knowledge if I want to lower or raise the track volume the overall track will just be louder/quiter with the send following suit.

Example, in Renoise (Pre):

Drum track > compressor as insert > reverb send. With pre, like above, I adjust the track’s volume in the mixer and the amount of returned reverb changes relative to it. The amount of compression on the drum changes though. B If I decide to lower my drum track’s volume in the mixer, less compression is applied the more I lower it.

Example, in Renoise (Post):

Drum track > compressor as insert > reverb send. This time with post, I adjust the track’s volume in the mixer and the amount of returned reverb stays the same. The amount of compression on the drum stays the same. C

So above in bold are results A, B and C.

From my experience, pretty much everyone mixes using method A. I always have, my friends always have and anyone I follow on the net does.

But it doesn’t seem to be possible in Renoise, apart from using workarounds which dont allow adjusting of the mixer fader (rendering it pointless). And/or you need to start using more inserts and routing (seems unnecessary).

My question then, is, do the Renoise devs have any plans of implementing A? It really is an industry standard feature, missing from an otherwise awesome bit of software.

Cheers

2

This is one aspect of renoise that I have always hated and never understood, you’re completely correct, the faders are useless. I got in to the habit of using gainers, which I actually like using now, but it would be a lot nicer to be able to use the faders.

3

Yes you need to place a gainer device between compressor and reverb send and use it as mixing fader. Yes you are right, the renoise post fader needs some improvements.

I would suggest to the the devs, that there needs to be some post-fader connection functionality, you can meta-connect the mixer fader to (any?) other gain or send devices in the insert slots.

Apart from your situation A, there is also another situation, where post Fader becomes completely useless (for me almost every time):

If you mute-send the track output to a sum bus, the post-output will be controlled by the last send device, the post fader has no more functionality. In this case, renoise could be so smart and auto connect the fader to the last muted-send device.

So I conclude, the post fader needs to become more a meta fader.

For example right click on a send or gain device provides the option “setup as post fader”

EDIT: PLEASE READ THIS UPDATED POST AND VOTE THERE:#17

4

The gainer can be automated and turned off, automations in renoise can not be muted and you can only have one per parameter as that is renoise’ design, you’ll find it handy to use a gainer instead, and the gainer can be set to show sliders in the mixer. (the visual mixerfader value index is off anyway)

By the way, this can be fixed quite simply with a tool, not sure if someone has written it though (the post gainer can not be automated though), doesn’t seem to be much interest in this issue anyway.

5

Hi peeps, thanks for the replies.

Here’s hoping it’s something they implement.

Jurek, when you mentioned meta connecting the mixer fader to devices did you mean this is possible or are you suggesting it?

gova, yea that’s something I saw mentioned in previous posts… can you elaborate please? Is it complex programming? I have a wee bit of a coding background, doing web design and I used Delphi a bit at Uni.

6

Super Mega Dude: No, it’s currently not possible, it’s a suggestion. You are completely right, the post fader has no usage in lot of scenarios currently.

7

It’s funny these things you take for granted and then when they’re gone you realise how essential they are.

Anyway, no software is perfect and sometimes workarounds encourage you to think in different ways. Maybe it’ll trigger ideas I wouldn’t normally come up with.

8

It’s 2 maybe 3 times longer than this that will already work, and hey if you could implement VCAs that would be cool too, apparently that’s another cool thing for mixing.

local trk = renoise.song().selected_track
local postfx_vol = trk.postfx_volume
local function sync_last_send_with_postfx()
trk.devices[#trk.devices]:parameter(1).value = postfx_vol.value
end
postfx_vol.value_observable:add_notifier(sync_last_send_with_postfx)
9

There is another way without using a gainer, but it has its own downside. Put your track in a track group, put the send on the group fx, and now you can use the track fader. The downside is you quickly make the pattern matrix very difficult to use with way too many squares.

10

:stuck_out_tongue:
Anyone wants to make that tool? Anyone? If I think about it you can automate this directly via indirect means. I swear it’s just 50 lines of code, no more. I kind of want to try VCAs, i think those could be worth the pseudo realtime automation implementation.

11

gova, you already did half the job :stuck_out_tongue: Why not finishing? Feature request:

In order of priority: If a gain device named “track gain” is available, sync post fader with it’s gain control and leave the original post fader value at 0. If it’s not available and there is a muted send device available anywhere in the track, sync with it’s send amount. And on mouse-over post-fader, show the currently connected device, with some border, too.

12

Thanks Carbonthief. Works but as you said is still far from ideal.

Jurek +1 :stuck_out_tongue:

I checked and I’m out my depth with the scripting. I did multimedia at Uni which covered a bit of coding - html, javascript, object pascal (borland delphi). If you know anything about these courses though, you’ll know you come out a “Jack of all trades, master of none”.

Also that was 8 years ago and I’m in a completely different industry now.

Yup so if any kind soul *cough, gova, *cough would be up for having a crack at this I would be forever indebted!

13

There’s no mouse over function in the API you can only launch a function every time the fader’s value changes, moreover you can’t control the gui outside of your own tool window. This is all of the free time I could muster till next week. Lua is simple guys, and the api is very comfortable. You should really learn it jurek, especially since so many things you want can be easily implemented…

14

ok but there arises some problems:

  • in super mega dude’s scenario, the post fader needs to display another volume but needs to stay itself at 0 all the time - I think that’s not possible currently.

  • Are there events / observers if one is focussing on a track or changing the dsp devices in it (adding/removing)? Then it could be looked after a possible device one time and a pointer to it saved…

Well I guess, this is only really possible if the devs do it natively.

15

1 youcan compensate anything the post fader is doing with a gainer, also with the api

2 selected track observable

selectedtrack’sdevices tableobservable

don’t forget to remove those

once again, GUI elements outside of your own tool’s window can not be changed (only some exceptions with hide/show)

you can also just have a timer run a function that would do all the checks all the time, lets say, every 200ms when it’s on, would be easier as you don’t have to manage any observables, and a tick based solution like this might actually be more efficient, because you’d probably still need to have to collect those notifications observables not to get too many of them when quickly moving the fader

that would simplify this to something of this sort:

--have an auto rename function, to greatly reduce the amount of work in the processing function
local function sync_pstfxsnd()
local trk = renoise.song().selected_track
local dev_amount = #trk.devices
local snd = trk:device(dev_amount-1)
if snd.name = 'pstfxsnd' and snd.is_active then
--<math that would remove the effect of the post send via a gainer, gainer is: trk:device(dev_amount)>
--<post fader value = send device amount>
--don't forget to have the same ranges in the fader as it is in the send
end
end
local function tick_on_off()
--this will be on-off switch
--if already on
--remove_timer
--else
--add timer
end
16

Yeah pal appreciate you’ll be busy, I was just chancing my luck in case it was a quick code for you. Thanks for your input :slight_smile:

I’m not completely writing off having a crack at coding something but it would be a bit down the line since I’m already having to take a lot in trying out this new type of DAW.

17

Gova, man what you are talking about? That is NOT. A practical solution you’re approaching here, it’s a patch-workaround-hack fix, quite complicated and annoying. And a timer to check a one time thing - common that’s a quite bad concept.

Today I woke up and suddenly had the most simple and maybe clever solution for this problem as an inspiration for taktik and dblue:

The post fader box should be able to be moved! To any place in the dsp line, just like another dsp! The output of course still will be taken at the end, but internally it would be just like another invisible gainer!

That approach would be so maximum easy to handle! So intuitive! imagine this. And no ugly meta hack connection.

Like Christmas with korg, Roland and Yamaha.

18

An additional gainer is annoying? rly now :stuck_out_tongue:

I would kill my self every time I wanted to automate anything in renoise if I found something so smallannoying. A timer with an on off switch would be just far simpler for newbies to write than to work with the observable pattern.

But hey, enjoy your post fx send fader in2 years :stuck_out_tongue:

A practical solution is rewire or redux, always was.

19

Hehe we will see, maybe those two geniuses will read this and think: "Hey what a good and simple idea. And so easy to implement for us! And so simple for our customers and fans! Also backwards compatible ". Such feature already justifies a major version jump in the Steinberg’s world.

BTW. I never thought about this before, but I always wondered why it seems quite a bit more easy to setup volume balances in the mixer in Logic, Ableton or Cubase. This seems to be one reason. Another is that the post fader almost always is useless in my projects.

20

YES.

YES YES YES. This topic comes up again! I posted about it a while back here basically describing exactly the same conundrum.

There are times when Renoise’s architecture is handy, and being able to drop in a #Send at any point in the signal chain certainly does allow for versatile and creative routing.

However, I would also argue that this is highly confusing for new users or users coming over from other DAWs.

To illustrate: A typical user from another DAW might want a compressor at the top of the signal chain, and a send out to a reverb. With the current pre/post-FX system, they’re basically limited to either messing up their gain-staging with the Pre-FX mode faders, or messing up their reverb send with the Post-FX mode. There are of course workarounds, but seeing as a compressor and FX send is such a basic and common configuration for a signal chain, new users would just find it confusing and would wonder why Renoise can’t do this without workarounds.

I guess the hard part for the Renoise team now is how this problem should be approached without breaking backwards-compatibility, because it is obviously not as simple as just putting a “Post-Fader” button on the #Send device, or making a new #FX-Send device which is post-fader.

Regardless though, I also would really really like to see this addressed. Until then Super Mega Dude, get friendly with the Gainer device! B)

PS. Welcome!