Switchable Type-Grouped Views

jalex had an idea for a chords like visualization. see here: Idea For Chord
this idea is based on it.

auto-sorted octave-keys pattern editor:

   
 (if octave 5 isnt empty, show column for 6, etc)  
 3 | 4 | 5 | 6  
01 ....|DGB.|D...|....  
02 ....|....|....|....  
03 ....|EGB.|D...|....  
.. ^ ^  
.. | |  
 | |_autoexpanded as soon as any row in the pattern has a note in a column there, maximum number of characters is 12 since it is 1 octave  
 |  
 |_always left-aligned, sorted left-most is 1** in grouped vol/pan/del (the vol/pan/del will shift around when you "insert" a key into the sorted octave-keys)  
  
  
the traditional view goes along, updates itself. so, instruments and vol/pan/del can be entered there.  
  
  
somehow needed: a grouped-inst/vol/pan/del:  
  
 1** 2 3 4 1** 2 3 4 1** 2 3 4 1** 2 3 4  
 ins ins ins ins vol vol vol vol pan pan pan pan del del del del  
00 00 00 00 00 12 10 08 11 12 40 10 22 00 00 00 00  
01 00 00 00 00 12 10 08 11 12 40 10 22 00 00 00 00  
..  
..  
  
this view would fit, because: it is fast to look/navigate from E (4) to G and B and D (5) (see above)  
due to the missing # and missing octave numbers, it's more uninterleaved.  
so, the fast looking/navigating from key to key should also happen in inst/vol/pan/del.  
  
  
There is no "#" in the above descriptions, so:   
  
C# => c (lowercase)  
or  
C# => @ (inverted character colors)  
  

big up! i think its cool idea, many usebility

I can envision different “view modes” per track somewhere in the future. This, wave view and PIANO ROLL being some of them. :)

How do Note Offs fit with this view? Especially as you may not have the notes sorted in order for the reason they are of different, overlapping length. With auto-sorting displays isn’t this going to become a bit of a headache? Or are you going to totally forget about the end of notes and only care where they trigger? Does a sustained note through two chords get shown in the display of both?

its alternative pianoroll, bacause classic piano roll with renoise will do another daw. i love tracker vision and i want to tracker was tracker.

maybe

ccgd5

…#.

#…

- note off (or [])

That doesn’t help with the sustained notes in overlapping chords though does it.

ok ) any idea?

Not really. As you are already using upper and lower case for sharps and naturals you can’t use lower case to indicate a note still being held. A different font would probably look to messy/be too hard to distinguish. Just listing the note again would be ambiguous with retriggering it. Maybe an underlined letter might just about look OK…

hmmm. cool! underlined note its very intresting. if I understand you for chord mode need more clear and visibilty note elemnts for much more efficiently.

so

if i want F major (F-4 A-4 C-5 D-5) its like this FACD5

That would be useful

No, I’m talking about progressive chords (is that the right name?)

Let’s do a simple C major to C minor. CEG -> CdG

CEG

CdG

As the only note that doesn’t stay held down is the E/E-flat.

tennis is taking too much of my brain % atm, didn’t know about the sustain feature at all don’t know what’s actually meant by sustained note. anyway, kaza is right, auto-sorting and closing gaps will remove control over which note you stop by which following note, i believe.

  
CDE  
CE  
  

i see no unambiguous way here to stop D. point is, actually, sorting and closing or creating gaps is atm up to the user, and should probably stay there. so, remove sorting and closing gaps from the idea. auto-sorted shortened would be a homer-mobile

  
CDE  
C.E  
  
ECD  
CDE  
  

what’s left is: an alternative uninterleaved view => the possibility to create and see something like CEG, though with the 5 somewhere else. the idea would be then away from your original idea, jalex, hence the new thread.

ps:
let’s assume there’s the traditional interleaved and a new uninterleaved view.

and then: a sorting feature thats completely independet of both views. just something could do with a lua script atm.
you press the sort-key and in both views notes get sorted some way (no idea how exactly), plus a close-gaps feature on some key too. nothing automated at all.
then, no matter where, enter notes, sort, close gaps etc as you want. in the interleaved view it would look like C-5 D-5 E-5, in the uninterleaved CDE and the 5 is somewhere at the top.
the ideas should be kept separated.

I’m struggling a bit to follow all the various ideas in this thread, but if I’ve interpreted your original diagram correctly…

You want to go from this:
2911 renoise_autosortednotes_before.png

To something like this:
2912 renoise_autosortednotes_after.png

Just a quick 10 minute paintshop pro job, but is this more or less correct?

I have to say that I would personally find this method to be pretty confusing and unintuitive overall. It would be quite a pain in the ass to edit/copy/paste each note, since all the columns are split apart into different locations. Would be especially confusing to have the vol/pan/dly columns jumping around and magically rearranging themselves when notes are added/removed, with no clear indication of which column belongs to each note, except manually counting the notes from left to right and then trying to find the correct column you want to edit. Losing this association between the notes and their properties simply feels wrong to me.

It’s always interesting to think about alternate methods of viewing/editing the notes, but I’m sorry to say I don’t think this particular method will work.

yes.

thanks for the pic

now seeing it, it’s a more intuitive content mask…

one could intuitivly copy around all volumes or so.
if the group columns (group = all vols e.g.) could be reordered, you could - instead of clicking content mask check boxes - arrange the columns as you wish and drag stuff more wysiwyg like. though i had never a problem with the content mask.

imo editing control values side by side would be not bad.

indeed, a note and it’s properties belong together. copying notes with it would suck. editing chords not ;)

it’s really what you’re after, can’t say i find it bad, if you’d like to focus on something like: chords, volumes, delays or whatever. the content mask does just mask copy&paste (so it doesn’t cover the whole editing), still it’s there to free you from monolithic notes too.

the auto-sorting and auto-gaps-closing would simply suck. dismissed.
(but those two ideas without “auto-” could be good tools in general)

ps:
i didn’t intent the original pattern editor should change in any way.
the core idea is just adding a new (switchable) view:
1 = interleaved (traditional) view
2 = uninterleaved (new) view

between 1 and 2 just let renoise unselect (or keep two independant selections)

with that feature, when you quickly want to delete all volumes, or interpolate all pans or whatever: switch to view 2, select a block, do your operation, and switch back. then you did not have to check/uncheck the content mask checkboxes, and it was more intuitive, because you saw it could only effect what was under your selection. if one would really like to immitate a complicated content mask: reorder the [vol vol vol] [pan pan pan] etc, takes about as long as editing the content mask. you would then always directly see (in view 2) what you kill/drag/copy or not, even if more content types are involved.

the chords is actually another separate idea, though based on the uninterleaving-thought:
there’s two ways

a) strict horizontal reordering:

  
ceg 444  
  

b ) free rearrangement:

  
4 5 6  
ceg  
  

method b would look like a piano (at least it would sort octaves). but the big drawback: notes would have to jump around here and column sizes would have to change, since it’s simply no strict uninterleaved order (you’ll wanna slap me for overusing this u*****leaved word *g ). so i find the strict method a) better.

there are several of those strict modes (strict = just horizontally reordered characters) one could think of:

  
key-grouping-mode-1: |C-5|D#5| traditional, best default, would not scare somebody who tries non-traditional type-grouping modes  
  
key-grouping-mode-2: |C-|D#| |5|5| detach octaves  
  
key-grouping-mode-3: |C|D| |-|#| |5|5| detach sharps and octaves, probably seldomly used  
  
key-grouping-mode-4: |C|d| |5|5| detach octaves, use lowercase (or different colored) characters for sharp notes  
  

well, this would be non-invasive non-homer-mobile-way of doing it.

ps2:
just thinking loud about it, if it should really cover the content mask functionality, it would have to be able to uninterleave over tracks, since - i guess - the content mask can work over several tracks too. so:

switchable views:
view 1: traditional view
view 2: uninterleaved inside tracks
view 3: uninterleaved over tracks

view 3 means, you could edit e.g. all volumes of all tracks at one place (or e.g. instrument numbers), labeled and separated by nice lines of course

  
view 2:  
track 1 track 2  
vol vol pan pan vol vol pan pan  
  
view 3:  
teack 1 track 2 track 1 track 2  
vol vol vol vol pan pan pan pan  
  

please don’t get me wrong, i don’t want to advocate it without knowing what you could do with it and what not. i’m just a bit bored by other things, and thinking about how it imho would have to be implemented and what you could maybe do with it. if someone were to create a prototype one could play around with it and see ;)

It looks neatly sorted, but it doesn’t look convenient at all…