What would be required for Renoise to be accepted as a more “conventional DAW”? What would be required for Renoise 3.0 and above versions to be represented at Musikmesse in Frankfurt in the future?
It seems to me most of the nuts and bolts are already in place, with Renoise having most stuff that e.g. Bitwig and other DAWs try to have. Is it just the alphanumeric stuff that scares people off? Would a pianoroll and a linear sequencer/arranger basically turn Renoise into a huge commercial success?
Yeah, i feel for renoise. It is similar situation as with fruity loops some years ago. something what developed from simple idea into something much bigger still can not get over its shadow … at least with people who never tried it.
Maybe so, but then it seems Renoise needs a little economical “push” rather than more features? What a pity such a great product is to be found in the shadows.
You have to spend some money in order to get some money. We’re living in a DAW age of similarity and conformity, where most linear DAWs are designed to adapt similar workflow paradigms. But Renoise has a competitive advantage here, with its distinct set of features and alternate workflow paradigm.
I wonder what would be required for Renoise to cross the line to commercial success and be accepted as the great DAW it actually is.
In the case of FL, I’d say that its GUI (the colors, using tiny little knobs and microscopic text) added to that shadow.
Just dress FL in the suit of Logic, drop it on the market under a different name, and the people who never tried it would conclude something else.
Maybe it’s time for Renoise to make such a move too? If Renoise was re-compiled into a new DAW product, with the default way of entering notes being a pianoroll, and then introduced to the market with some thunder marketing… well, what if such a product became a commercial success? Then all the gold could be poured into maintaining BOTH a conventional DAW and Renoise… two products that could be closely tied together.
Tracking is intimidating to the inexperienced, it looks much more difficult than it is, most people look at a pattern editor like some kind of black magic is happening in front of them. We also live in an instant gratification obsessed world, the idea of a learning curve is something a lot of people just aren’t willing to deal with. So yeah, tracking is likely always going to be a niche method of making music. This isn’t without benefit though, Renoise not being a conventional program means you don’t have hundreds of people begging the devs to make it more like cubase/ableton/reaper etc, ultimately resulting in incoherent updates that no longer have a clear design philosophy.
Problem is somewhere else. Fl Studio is already very popular. i dont see problem in its GUI. Ableton or Renoise have also different look than traditional horizontal DAW and its users like it.
Logic or other DAWs has been created as a complete music workstation, while fruity loops or renoise were more “just” great tools and so limited somehow. Hundred times more than they are now.
So new promo is needed, like it is with new movies. Delete version number, make logo bolder and bigger, make 2 min promo video with dubstep and trap music that is created from the beginning to the end and RENOISE will rule the world />/>
(btw. Piano roll still would be nice feature, apps like buzz or sunvox have it and it doesnt break that great tracker aproach…
I can not think of better way how to create rhytm what is crucial for modern dance music, but i can imagine better way how to experiment with chords and their transition.)
Musikmesse booth space is not that expensive. I think biggest reason is, that nobody really bothers to go there. People have other stuff to do, and they don’t see much benefit in going to Musikmesse anyway.
I’d guess this is true for people who have just struggled to learn Garageband, but it can’t be true for experienced DAW users. If somebody can learn Live (and Max for Live) or Cubase or Reason or Logic, he can certainly learn Renoise. Heck, I’ve seen kids of age 7 play around with Renoise. If we’re talking instant gratification, then what could possibly be a better DAW than Renoise in this regard?
If tracking is likely to always be a niche method of composing music, then maybe it’s about time that Renoise elevated itself to a new level in this regard. I mean, why limit itself to a small niche? All the other nuts and bolts are already there, with DSP devices and whatnot else. Suppose if Renoise actually offered a little button (maybe like Reason’s TAB, where you can switch the rack around) that switched the pattern editor into “conventional mode”, replacing the entire pattern editor with a pianoroll and linear horisontal sequencer… And all official marketing videos were showing a Renoise where you could quickly get things done and freely experiment with sound in the default pianoroll mode… when you’re ready, just switch into the microscopic level of total control - the tracker way.
Yes, I can see that. However, the idea of going to Musikmesse with Renoise wouldn’t be so much to front the product and get publicity from visitors over there, but more to later show that Renoise is also a serious DAW and associate it with the productivity avant garde of our times, having a nice iframed video from Musikmesse to show at the homepage of renoise.com and in the music production forums around the world. People like the idea of something happening, something’s moving forward into the future, and the value of associating the Renoise logo and product with that can’t be under-estimated.
I think Renoise deserves more users who’re actively supporting and making possible the development of an even better future product.
Offering a pianoroll and linear clips/event-based sequencer would serve as a bridge to all the people who already use other, more expensive DAWs. Such users wouldn’t have an excuse to ignore Renoise based on their impression that it has a steep learning curve and operates from an alien workflow paradigm that takes to much time and energy to learn. Instead they would find something familiar to instantly start working with, and then slowly discover the relationship between that familiar way of entering notes with the tracker way of entering notes.
I have never been at Musikmesse, but from what I have seen by watching at some videos of it, there are lots of software houses which hire established artist to perform live using their products.
from a Renoise point of view, this is where probably being there is pointless: you should find a known artist using Renoise who could actually do something like a live act which people can both understand and like, from both a composer and listener point of view.
the alternative is to simply try to attract users by showing videos of a pattern flowing and playing music.
I don’t think there is a real reason to be there for Renoise. Plus: what Suva said
Well, I think you and Suva are right, if we’re just talking values that arise within the exhibition context. However, my point is not to be there at Musikmesse and demonstrating Renoise. I’d guess 99% of all the vistors wouldn’t care at all. Nor would the other 1% who stopped by to watch the product being demonstrated out of curiosity be of any interest (with maybe the exception for the press). Using artists on stage to demonstrate Renoise live composing/performing features wouldn’t impress anybody either.
No. My main point is this: when you take the opportunity to record proper high quality videos of Renoise being “out there” among the serious players in the music industry, people who watches the videos in forums and on the renoise.com homepage will associate Renoise with an avant-garde context of productivity. They’ll subconsciously attach some kind of quality badge to Renoise just because it was represented there. This is the kind of marketing steps that shouldn’t be underestimated in today’s world.
Boy am I glad that you guys aren’t Renoise product managers. These ideas sound like they came from the pointy haired boss on Dilbert.
Sunvox has a piano roll? I don’t think you know what a piano roll is.
BTW how many threads of “Renoise could be multibillion dollar business if only they implemented my stupid feature request/ad campaign” vs. “No, renoise should be an exclusive product, we should be aiming for fewer customers if possible” are we going to have? Just let renoise be the best program it can be. I guarantee that the renoise team have thought its direction much more deeply than you have and they certainly have a lot more at stake in it than any of you do.
Renoise is still a hobby for the team devs and this is the way they like it and gives them the most fun. If it would grow to a multibillion dollar product, it would outgrow their intensions and would probably be forced to travel a route where there is frankly no intension to go. (more supoprt needed than capable to be handled, more staff required, new strategy etc.)
So the low-profile marketing is intended.
You didnt get the joke. I dont really care if Renoise is commercially successful or not. I am just saying why i think Renoise is not more popular and glorified.
And about piano roll. I should be more specific.
I was talking about way of showing notes. Renoise shows midi value. Sunvox shows midi value and also position on keyboard. And it is big difference for somebody who doesnt know music theory very well. You can build chords by counting keys between tones and when you dont have midi keyboard or you are not skillfull with your computer keyboard this form of visualization can be very helpful.
Since I work with Renoise I experiment with unusual chord progressions much less what i can not say about other parts of composing.
(But I am sure it has been said hundred times as there is specific topic for PR).
/>/>
/>/>