Will it be a renoise 4.0?

you simply didn’t read the manual

Let’s think in another perspective:

SunVox is my first tracker, and I didn’t read any manual to use it, besides one or two solarlune’s videos and a couple of example projects in the software, but they already let me know how tracker works and I can already feel comfortable to work with because the workflow is intuitive without much hidden behaviors or nuance. The intuition of Sunvox is like doing math: if you add one and two, you always get three. For example, if I see metamodule can accept either audio or midi if I use amplifier or multisynth respectively, and since delay module can receive both, I can straightly expect delay can makes metamodule accepting both type of signal, simultaneously. The only time I have stepped into the manual is when I am doing tutorials which I need a precise definition of a feature.

But in Renoise, things doesn’t seems as straight forward, and oftentimes, it feels like when I clearly see a path in sight, I run into it; however, the “path” is actually a wall and I crashed hard. Some of my aforementioned “short by one” features have such feelings to it, which visually and intuitively, it clearly should allow me to do such features, but technically, such features don’t exist… and because it has disrupted my original plan on making a certain sounds, I need to spend a good couple of hours just to understand how a feature actually works using the manual or some forum posts, at worst, sometimes I need to spend times just for the most basic stuff, and usually, these issues are not inherently caused by the tracker itself, but the features surround it.

If I have to deeply study a software by reading a manual for every aspect before I can even work for the basic stuff like adding/removing a note in a modern way or properly scrolling the grid, or using so many workarounds just to fix a limitation, rather than using our instinct or intuition borrowing from other software, this might reveal some serious UX problems that hurt the usability.

PS: I might be out of topic because I have realized fladd’s comment after I have written all of these, but whenever I have seen the argument “read the manual” even on the most basic stuff, I definitely can see some deeper issue with it and want to share it.

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I am using Magix Music Maker mostly, but for Retro reasons, I have considered Trackers.

Trackers were a simple and popular interface to music making, and an early version of free music, as streaming is today.

Trackers such as CRB Protracker was inspired by me, and also Impulse Tracker. Impulse Tracker did DSP in its time, that was the edge needed for a complete sound.

To be honest, trackers became a bit too obtuse, IMO they should be simpler. OSC/Sample–18dBFilter*–Env–FX type thing with master basssat–masterclip for easy loudness, would be more in line with the original spirit.

Renoise shortkeys seem in line with the original thing.

And the scopes are far too many when I turn them on :slight_smile: It is enough with two!

Light

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My first tracker was Fast Tracker, while its main competitor in the 90s was Impulse Tracker. No matter how many times I tried to master it, I couldn’t do it. This doesn’t make it a bad tool, it’s just a different method with a similar idea. I also spent 6 years on Fruitiloops and the result was very small, and this is also not my interface. Renoise saved me a lot because I thought I was hopeless and completely devoid of talent. Now imagine that most users use Renoise because they can’t use Sunvox (by the way, with my dyslexia, it is very difficult for me to concentrate in it) because of its interface.

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‘Tracker Taliban’ sounds like a name for a breakcore tracker band. lol

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TrakerroisT

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with my dyslexia, it is very difficult for me to concentrate in it

Oh, would you mind to share some of the struggle on using SunVox?

Since I am currently learning some gui frameworks, wanting to build some applications in future, and I usually wanting to know more about UX so that I can make something that is intuitive to use, and since I have occasionally heard about people mentioning dyslexia affecting their workflow, I wish to know more about that perspective.

PS: Thanks for your story mate, I didn’t know you have struggled quite a bit on making music before you have finally found Renoise.

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the main merit of renoise is in its logic. it is a tool that assumes separation of processes. That is, my windows are configured for specific tasks (here I create a sound patch, here I mix, here I write only notes, etc.) this significantly helps to maintain focus (setting up the display of windows). Despite the fact that renoise is more of a sampler, many use it as a synthesizer (there are many guides on this topic on the forum) and in general the commutation backlight and autocollapse also help to focus. The main problem of sunvox for me personally is everything everywhere and at once. For many years I wrote about this to Alexander Zolotov (the author of sunvox) that if you separate or do it, it will make the process more consistent. A free interface is not always a blessing. Sometimes it is useful to direct the user so that he can focus exclusively on some one moment. I gained this experience from working with live instruments. Since I can devote most of my time to developing instruments. and next time I’ll only write a composition from ready-made elements. I really like this one from Renoise. Thanks to this, I’ve created a whole library of my own instruments that I can easily load into a project.

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This, the fact that it has such a strong legacy support policy is why even If you don’t always use it, it’s a good tool to have, which daw or any software for that matter can still be used in Win XP, Win 7, Mac Snow Leopard, I don’t know how old linux kernel but I assume 3.0. I feel really reassured with how much variety of systems can I still open saved songs no matter how old (either the song file or the system), can’t say the same for any others, I assume you can’t open emagic projects in logic just for 32 bit alone.

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Yeah, it happened when I began using vst-intruments. Not sure why, I have tried to pinpoint the problem, tried different Renoise-versions and different versions of the instruments, tried all the rendering options which didn´t help, so I went back to offline, fast as possible rendering. Maybe it´s because I use Macintosh? It happens on both Mojave and High Sierra.

@Bryan: Legacy support is so important. Last time I bought a computer it had to be a pre 2015 one because I needed an old operating system to run ancient DMX-stuff. Also,I have a dream about going semi-offline at some point, then there will be far between any program-updates. I will have to rely on old stuff then.

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Although I use SunVox all the time, I do agree this is actually a reason why people find it daunting, and I even have nearly gave it up because of that. It is definitely hard to use SunVox all at once, so I usually do my sound design, music composition and logic experiment separately; otherwise, it just feels overwhelming and have no idea where to start. I even have built some tools to generate some preset banks so that I can have a set of preset for the users created modules which I can quickly pull off some sounds for composing music instead of starting from sketch.

Perhaps I have a specified workflow for SunVox and I have get used to it, so this might be the reason I don’t find it hard to use.

A free interface is not always a blessing.

I will definitely note that down in mind because I do understand things can be cursed if it is too flexible, so is too restricted. Not sure if that is relevant, I don’t like Python for the exact reason because every type is free to a point that I have no idea what is the input of a function, result in longer debug time than java or zig, while rust is the other end of the spectrum which is so restricted that building some structures are unnecessarily convoluted although I like some of the concept.

So yeah, I guess the same idea can be applied in everywhere, so when I need to build something, I need to know how to build something that is flexible but not overwhelming.

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I love Ableton Lite! if you have iOS it costs you 5 dollars when buying koala sampler, I much prefer using piano roll in a program that was designed for that instead of trying to force Renoise into something it isn’t. If you want that, simple piano roll tool is awesome and enough.

The Logic Pro Trial slaps :wink:

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I tried Sunvox a few times and honestly it drove me crazy. I didn’t feel it was intuitive at all. I’ll probably try again one day but I have low hopes. But Renoise for me was and is so easy from the get go.

People tend to gravitate to different DAWs simply by the way their brain works, and every DAW is better at one thing than its competitors.

Bear in mind my music is not the kind mentioned in the beginning, but I record post punk new wave mostly and find Renoise can do the job. Yes you have to think differently but for reason that different way of working works for me and I tend to work faster.

I of course would love more live tracking in Renoise or some built in workarounds to make comping easier, but I would prefer personally to use my workarounds than fundamentally change what Renoise is and how it works, because I find it very inspiring software.

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Oh boy… there we go again.

could you tell me more about livetracking in renoise, and which workarounds you’re using and other hacks and things. i could see about trying to figure out how to script them.

Here is a topic - “What would you want AI to do in Renoise?”

Fortunately, AI is green. For now!

But the next generation will perceive it as an integral part of life, without even trying to check the veracity of the information. Therefore, this will be the first step towards degradation.

That is why we need a new version that will disrupt the nasty plans of AI to infiltrate our everyday lives.

Ridiculous Post! Made my day!!! :rofl:

OK, but seriously… Will it be a renoise 4.0?

  • Yes
  • No
  • I don’t know
  • I don’t care
  • It depends on TakTik
  • It depends on AI ability to code it by itself
0 voters

It won’t be ‘a renoise 4.0’ it will be THE RENOISE 4 point OOOOOOO

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Nah, fuck it. Imma learn Saxophone and start doing heroin.

Will be back on 4.0. See y’all.

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Oh wow, that’s sounds wonderful!

Ok, let me see - I hope I don’t forget anything.

I think true live multitracking is probably beyond the scope of a script. I mean, it would be nice to be able to record multiple samples at the same time, but I don’t know if that’s entirely doable. One way I do this if I need to is using Melda Productions’ tool for the job, although it can be a little clunky, and admittedly I do tend to focus on one recording at a time, and it’s difficult to do it with the metronome.

The real needs I think have to do with being able to mark beginning and end sections, and then recording between these. Obviously on Renoise you’ve got the patterns of 64 lines, and this actually works really well at being able to break a song down into pieces to work with (one of the things I think that is really great as it’s like ‘eating an elephant’ piece by piece).

Recording vocals can be a little easier than guitar, but the same principle applies. Here’s what I do.

  1. Always use the ‘sync to pattern’ option on recording a sample.
  2. I will use the gray ‘repeat’ function on the pattern matrix (where grayed patterns are looped)
  3. The recording will start on the next pattern depending on whether I push play on the song before play on the recording, which is preferable. I will start on the pattern BEFORE the loop, therefore.
  4. I might mark the beginning of the loop by labelling a section on the pattern matrix, so that later it can be seen if I’m working somewhere else
  5. Sometimes I might mark by placing the note BEFORE even recording - so that once the recording is done, the sample is already placed so I can ‘kind of’ hear it live instantly while I’m recording another sample as the loop begins.
  6. I’ll record. But taking multiple takes can be a bit time consuming, as you’ve got to push stop and then start the process again of going back to the previous pattern before the loop and pushing play and then record, so that you can ensure you start at the same place for each sample (if it would be easy to take multiple takes quickly, that would be great, but at this point I can’t see it happening)

This is the real power in other DAWS in when the loop goes back, it actually starts another recording. On Renoise, it’s obviously all on the same sample. So let’s say you’re playing a guitar part and want to stay in the groove so you just keep recording over the loop over and over. You then have to go into the sample and create slices of each take in the sample. That extra step can be time consuming, especially with rhythm guitar parts, as sometimes subtle rhythm things are lost because you have to place the note at exactly the right spot and fiddle with ‘delay’ if it sounds wrong. (I hope I’m making sense). I mean if there was some way to tell it to record a new sample in a new instrument every time the loop begins, that would be EPIC. (I hope this makes sense?)

  1. I’ll make multiple tracks for each take, and place the notes of each sample (instrument) in the appropriate place at C-4
  2. I have to go into each sample and turn on autoseek
  3. Then we comp by muting the other tracks, listening, and using the SLICEMATE tool to make the same slices across each take. (It would be nice if the slicemate tool was able to slice everything within a group of tracks rather than each track individually, but it works just as well. This tool is absolutely a god-send!)
  4. Then to comp, you mute tracks, umute and listen to each track, and use the volume command at L00 for those slices you don’t want. If somehow here one could place these all in a group and somehow only what your cursor on is audible, that would be a help for comping, but I think this might be taking it a bit too far.

Things I think could help and be doable:

  1. As mentioned above - somehow having it record a new sample into a new instrument track each time the loop begins. Maybe even if it could automatically name those instruments according to a predefined naming convention (like if I’m recording vocals, I can tell it to use vocals where is the take number)
  2. Be able to put Autoseek automatically on - some sort of option for this somewhere.
  3. Visual aid of the sample while you’re working (but not in the pattern editor, it would get too messy). I think this might actually work in a simple way through just being able to see the ‘sample’ view on the ‘edit’ screen at the top. Given that the cursor moves through a sample in the sampler when you are on the correct instrument, simply allowing you to view that moving through the waveform, not in the pattern editor but perhaps there at the top where you can activate the spectrum / scopes pane, as perhaps a third choice (“sample pane”) means that when you click on an instrument in a channel you can see the waveform and its slices as the song is playing. That visual aid and ability to watch for changes as the song is going without having to switch between the edit and the sample tab might help rather than having to listen back all the time, and it might also satisfy the requests that come up now and again to see the waveforms in the editor. Sure, if you have two screens you can disconnect the sample tab and have it displaying on a separate screen. But most people are probably working on their laptops in all sorts of mobile situations.
  4. Being able to have some more control / variation over the metronome sounds

I think those four things would probably make Renoise much better at tracking, without breaking the interface or making it something it’s not.

I apologise if this is really long! I just wanted to be thorough :slight_smile:

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