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Phrases, Polyrhythm Example


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#1 2 daze j

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 23:41

Hi, 

 

https://1drv.ms/u/s!...k8uxFggzlVo5XfF

 

 

Cheers,

 

  :drummer: 


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#2 dblue

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 00:08

Maybe you'll enjoy this :)

Attached File  dblue-2018-05-12-plinky-plonky-polyrhythms.xrns   6.53KB   139 downloads
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#3 2 daze j

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 01:07

 

 

Dreamy :-)


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#4 Neurogami

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 05:25

 

What is happening? 


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#5 El°HYM

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 07:18

... 'sonified pendulum waves' - Native Feature Request for Renoise 3.3.1  :drummer: 

 

What is happening? 


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#6 lettuce

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 00:55

The dBlue plinky-plonky-polyryhthms.xrns example sounds very natural, like something a keyboardist or pianist might do if they were improvising.

 

phrase 1 is 16 lines in length

phrase 2 is 15 lines in length

phrase 3 is 14 lines in length

phrase 5 is 13 lines in length

phrase 4 is 12 lines in length

phrase 6 is 11 lines in length

phrase 7 is 10 lines in length

phrase 8 is 9 lines in length

 

The 16 line phrase is the only phrase in the example which completes its cycle ( the main pattern editor pattern length is 16 lines, phrases and main pattern editor are set to 4 LPB ).

 

All the others do one and a bit.

 

If the main pattern editor pattern length were to be set to 288 lines, it wold be possible to have 18 complete cycles of phrase 1 ( 16 line phrase, 18x16=288 ), 24 complete cycles of phrase 4 ( 12 line phrase, 24x12=288 ) and 32 complete cycles of phrase 8 ( 9 line phrase, 32x9=288 ).

 

If a very, very long pattern or multiple patterns were used it may be possible to get all of the phrases doing multiple complete cycles.

You would have to find, for example a multiple of 14 which is also a multiple of 16, or a multiple of 11 which is also a mulitple of 16.

 

I have no idea how to work out that kind of thing. How is it done?

 

Although the example sounds beautiful, technically it is not a polyrythmic pattern as only the 16 line phrase completes its cycle, which makes it just a 4/4 pattern with interesting rhythms inside it...a repeating 16 line ryhthm.

 

If the pattern were 288 lines in length ( or more, to get the other multiples of phrase lengths in ) then it would be a polyrhythm as the phrases other than the 16 line phrase would be completing their cycles.

 

As far as I am aware a polyrhythm must have complete cycles, like layering different time signatures ontop of each other.


Edited by lettuce, 16 May 2018 - 01:10.

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#7 2 daze j

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 01:56

Pattern 8 plays for 8 lines - that is 2/4 is it not?   Technically it is a polyrythm, and just complex fractions, like 15/16, 14/16, 13/16 and such --  or am I completely and totally wrong?   I could be way off.   

 

I did notice that you would have trouble doing polyrhythms like 4/4 and 12/8 without a calculator and some major renoise trickery  --  example at link below 

 

https://1drv.ms/u/s!...lLVURwM4_GOIKHD

 

Now for Techno, or House things get extremely confusing.   And it beckons the question, is it truly polyrhythmic?   There are definitely syncopated rhythms, is it multiple time signatures?   What if it is complex fractions, are those not multiple time sigs?  

 

If a kick is moving a 120 bpm, than you probably have to go with 2/4, or 3/4 to easily institute polyrhythms.  However, I am also not 100% sure that polyrythms must be from different time sigs.   it could just be two contrasting syncopated rhythms?   Yes/no?

 

I'm also learning, and just thinking it out.  This is way beyond what I know in terms of theory, and rhythm etc.

 

But as for House and Techno and dance and club music.  - -- yes, it can be polyrhythmic.   it is hard to program the stuff, but you can easily layer samples over the 4/4 beat that are polyrhythms

 

Btw, you can get 256 lines per beat, and 512 total lines in a pattern.  You are only limited by your ability to work out your polyrhythms with pen, paper, and calculator lol

 

 

 

Edit again =

 

This one here is, "maybe, maybe 4/4 and 6/4."  I mean, "I am pretty sure it is."  But I don't want to be like, "it is," and than I am wrong --- make sure when you load this example your master tempo is 60.   Your lpb is 128.   

 

https://1drv.ms/u/s!...lNQES7MzFC0fBr9

 

 

Notice the song is at 120 and not 60 bpm.  That the triplets should make about 6 beats to the bar, using my ears.   Could use the same procedure to make 9/4 quite easily


Edited by 2 daze j, 16 May 2018 - 02:40.

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#8 dblue

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 10:17

technically it is not a polyrythmic pattern as only the 16 line phrase completes its cycle


Note that I applied a glide command GF on every note in the pattern.

The first time the notes play they get triggered like normal, because nothing is sustained/looping/gliding yet.

When the pattern loops back around and the (still playing) notes are encountered again, the glide command prevents them from retriggering and simply lets the phrase continue like a looped/sustained note.

So in this particular example the pattern length is actually quite irrelevant, and the phrases will continue to play and loop out of phase until they all eventually cycle back around in sync again.

You can even reduce the pattern length to 1 line and it will sound the same.

I didn't bother to do the calculations myself, but yeah, it'll take quite a while before everything syncs back up again :)

Cheers.
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#9 danoise

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 10:44

I have no idea how to work out that kind of thing. How is it done?

 

"Least common multiple" is the term you're looking for. 

Here's a lua snippet you can run in the Renoise scripting console: 

function gcd(m,n)
  while n ~= 0 do
    local q = m
    m = n
    n = q % n
  end
  return m
end

function lcm(m,n)
  return ( m ~= 0 and n ~= 0 ) and m * n / gcd( m, n ) or 0
end

function least_common(t)
  local cm = t[1]
  for i=1,#t-1,1 do
    cm = lcm(cm,t[i+1])
  end
  return cm
end

print(least_common({16,15,14,13,12,11,10,9}))

In case you're wondering, the output is: 720720 lines. 

So yes, quite a while happy.png 

 

Edit: you can also visit this page to calculate such values:

https://www.calculat...rs/math/lcm.php


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#10 2 daze j

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 15:09

Wow

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#11 danoise

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 15:29

Yeah, there's no way we are going to have patterns upwards to a million lines :D

But it just goes to show why the trick that dblue pointed out is so useful (using the Gxx command to "trigger once"). You can do a lot of evolving stuff with a single pattern + matrix muting. 

 

Also: @2 daze j: I think you would find euclidean rhythms quite cool - they can produce almost any thinkable basic polyrhythm.

Check out xStream for an implementation of this idea cool.png


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#12 2 daze j

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 16:10

 

Also: @2 daze j: I think you would find euclidean rhythms quite cool - they can produce almost any thinkable basic polyrhythm.

Check out xStream for an implementation of this idea cool.png

 

I wont be able to mess around with the scripting.  My poor brain really can't think like that.  LOL.   I will definitely try and use the glide command and chop up more samples :-)


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#13 lettuce

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 20:49

I overlooked the volume column GF command.

 

Gx - Glide towards given note by x semitones. A value of F will make the slide instant.

 

Interesting. Instant glide lets the phrases sustain / loop indefinitely instead of retriggering.

I understand now why the pattern length is irrelevant.

 

I was thinking, if a polyrhythm were to be made up of only 16 line, 12 line and 9 line phrases then a pattern length of 144 would work out nicely

( 9x16=144, 12x12=144, 16x9=144 ).

 

The most common polyrythm, or the example that I have heard about quite often before, is 3/4 over 4/4.

The full polyrythm cycles every 24 beats. 

Eight sets of three beats and six sets of four beats ( 8x3=24, 6x4=24 ).

 

Thankyou. I will look up 'least common multiple'.

I have no idea how to use lua yet.


Edited by lettuce, 16 May 2018 - 20:51.


#14 2 daze j

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 22:02

 

I have no idea how to use lua yet.

 

All that information is here:  https://github.com/renoise/xrnx

 

I remember when this ability first appeared in 2.8?   I believe it came with the arranger tracks.  At first you could just access the scripting windows.  Now they are off by default.  I don't mind.  I may alter the config file to see them.

 

As far as scripting in renoise goes..  from what I can see is that from 2.7 - to 3.1 the program became incredibly modular.  and many of the community ideas that were tools, kind of became native to the program itself.


Edited by 2 daze j, 16 May 2018 - 22:02.

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#15 Neurogami

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 23:18

@dblue: Thank you!


Edited by Neurogami, 16 May 2018 - 23:19.


#16 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 01:16

Oh boy this glide trick for not retriggering the phrase is awesome .

Even workds on vst instruments and midi out .( but only when assigned to phrases )


Edited by gentleclockdivider, 17 May 2018 - 01:29.

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#17 dblue

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 11:28

Interesting. Instant glide lets the phrases sustain / loop indefinitely instead of retriggering.


Technically any glide value will work here, so the speed itself is not important.

Applying glide to a sustained sample that is already playing simply prevents the note from being retriggered on subsequent plays.

In this case, a looped phrase is also treated just like a sustained sample that will essentially play forever until you manually stop it, so the glide trick works nicely here, too.
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#18 lettuce

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 15:45

Thats a nice trick. Another way to use the glide commands other than for gliding.

So glide command is also 'prevent phrase from being retriggered when pattern loops' command.



#19 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 21:54

Thats a nice trick. Another way to use the glide commands other than for gliding.

So glide command is also 'prevent phrase from being retriggered when pattern loops' command.

WHich is why this trick is simply amazing .

Multiple phrases of different length  looping endlesly   could only be achieved by setting a trigger once and create multiple empty clips ( autoseeked ) 

This little trick gives the same result within a single pattern .


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#20 Guest_ffx_*

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 22:14



#21 lettuce

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Posted 19 May 2018 - 20:30

Some Poly-rhythms :

 

3 over 2 ( 6 'quarter note' / 6 'beat' cycle )

2 x 3 = 6 ( 2 bars of 3 quarter notes / beats each )

3 x 2 = 6 ( 3 bars of 2 quarter notes / beats each )

 

3 over 4 ( 12 'quarter note' / 12 'beat' cycle )

3 x 4 = 12 ( 3 bars of 4 quarter notes / beats each )

4 x 3 = 12 ( 4 bars of 3 quarter notes / beats each )

 

5 over 4 ( 20 'quarter note' / 20 'beat' cycle )

4 x 5 = 20 ( 4 bars of 5 quarter notes / beats each )

5 x 4 = 20 ( 5 bars of 4 quarter notes / beats each )

 

6 over 4 ( 12 'quarter note' / 12 'beat' cycle )

2 x 6 = 12 ( 2 bars of 6 quarter notes / beats each )

3 x 4 = 12 ( 3 bars of 4 quarter notes / beats each )

 

7 over 4 ( 28 'quarter note' / 28 'beat' cycle )

4 x 7 = 28 ( 4 bars of 7 quarter notes / beats each )

7 x 4 = 28 ( 7 bars of 4 quarter notes / beats each )

 

9 'eighth notes' / 'half beats' per bar over 4 'quarter notes' / 'beats' per bar ( 36 'quarter note' cycle / 36 'beat' cycle )

8 x 4.5 = 36 ( 8 bars of 4.5 quarter notes / beats each, or, 8 bars of 9 eighth notes / half beats each)

9 x 4 = 36 ( 9 bars of 4 quarter notes / beats each)

 

Mad props to anyone with the skills to play these polyrhythms live, whether it be on keyboard, drums or maybe even ragtime style guitar.

Its so hard to count and split the left hand and right hand ( or fingers ) in that way.


Edited by lettuce, 19 May 2018 - 20:33.


#22 2 daze j

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Posted 19 May 2018 - 21:07

The time signatures by themselves would not be polyrhythms.   we have to combine the signatures to get polyrhythms.   Again we to look to jazz -- two or more meters:  https://www.moderndr...op-polyrhythms/

 

3/4 in and of itself is considered simple time as is 2/4 and 4/4

 

As far as playing polyrhythms on guitar, bass, keyboard, and this is related to a post I edited in this thread - my last post in the thread that simply says, "edit.. etc," and it is basically a deleted post: http://forum.renoise...ean-club-music/

 

Polyrhythm is really something that exists in the lands of drums and percussion - obviously, rhythm instruments.  While rhythm is a big part of playing guitar I think it would be a little difficult to play two rhythms on guitar simultaneously without 3 hands.

 

A drummer in a rock band has two hands, and two feet.   Allowing for example: a 4/4 to be played on the kick, a 6/4 on the pedal of a hat, and two hands you could theoretically play 3/4 on the snare, and hit your toms in 12/4 

 

Now you can begin to layer the instruments over that in different time signatures if you want, but at some point you loose groove.   So if the guitarist comes in with a rhythm in a completely different time, and the bassist, and the keyboardist.   You have, "experimental music," that may not groove.

 

 

Groove, and whether something is in the pocket are also things to consider with music, and polyrhythm.


Edited by 2 daze j, 19 May 2018 - 21:09.

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#23 dblue

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Posted 19 May 2018 - 22:05

A drummer in a rock band (...)


The mere mention of this made me immediately think of the late, great John Bonham, legendary drummer from Led Zeppelin.

Here's a great example from an outtake recording of "Fool in the Rain": (Fffffaaackin' ell!)



He really gets going at around 1m:30s

Quite a complex blend of layers, opposing timings, shuffle and swing grooves, all flowing so damn buttery smooth and effortless... the man was a machine!

And here's an excellent little mini-docu from the Polyphonic channel discussing what made John so bloody good:


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#24 2 daze j

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Posted 19 May 2018 - 22:19

The mere mention of this made me immediately think of the late, great John Bonham, legendary drummer from Led Zeppelin.

Here's a great example from an outtake recording of "Fool in the Rain": (Fffffaaackin' ell!)

 

 

My all time favorite Zep Song!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    JB was a genius.  RIP


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#25 El°HYM

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 10:45

It would be a kool #feature to be able to draw polyrhythms & odd time-signatures as #geometrical forms using the X/Y pad, into #renoise.  :ph34r:


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