Buzz Sequence Editor Vs Renoise

Yes it is a subjective matter and indeed there is no ultimate “best way” of doing things because the best way for one person doesn’t necessarily work for someone else.

To avoid the crap-storm that hit the start part of this thread, I seriously wish that no claims of the superiority of either way of sequencing are made anymore. We all can see where that leads, and it’s obviously very non-productive.

There are polite ways of expressing such opinions, and those are much more likely to be taken under serious consideration by the recipients than full steam claims of obvious superiority.

I’m not defending anything but the possibility of this discussion to continue as far as possible without the descent towards the situation Godwin’s Law predicts.

I have spoken.

–Well: not all yet, so EDIT:
The assumption that grid pie is a ‘simpler program’ than the ‘pattern matrix’ is IMO completely flawed. It’s a script on top of a real application. I don’t think you can compare them side by side… But this is already probably beside the point.

You are welcome to post up a video of you using the Pattern Matrix, to show what you mean.
I am not advocating getting rid of the pattern matrix, the BSE would be an ALTERNATIVE to it.

I don’t agree that this is all subjective, clearly some user interfaces are easier to use, more productive, etc. than others.
If you had to type in ‘Go’ every time you wanted to move anything at all in the pattern matrix, would that be better, or worse than it is now? It’s clear that we can see if there are parts of a user interface which hinder the user. I tried to demonstrate this with my video, by asking pattern matrix users how they would achieve the same things. Those that replied with helpful posts (i.e. explaining exactly that - how they would edit the song in the same way I did in my video) showed that a lot more keypresses and mouse use are required when using the pattern matrix, than when using the BSE.
If there are things that the pattern matrix does that the BSE doesn’t, it may be possible to add them to the BSE too.

It’s only a user interface! The whole point of software is that it’s relatively easy to change something, unlike hardware interfaces.

As I said before, if the pattern matrix were easier, better, more comfortable, whatever, then I’m sure I would have a flood of videos showing me how to achieve the same things as I did in my video.

The tiny number of people who contributed negative comments about the BSE on this thread do not represent all Renoise users, yet they want to stop the BSE from even being discussed, or so it seems. I really don’t see the problem - you might as well ban all Renoise tools too, in case one of them ‘treads on somebody’s toes’ here, it’s ridiculous.

If the pattern matrix works for you, my claims that the BSE is better shouldn’t bother you in the slightest. Like I said, nobody is going to the Buzz forum and suggesting that Buzz should have a pattern matrix - why is that? Nobody has ever criticised the BSE, on a Buzz forum, to my knowledge - why is that? Because it was designed perfectly from the beginning, that’s why.

KMaki, thanks very much for the link, I’ll see if I have the brains and ability to learn Lua scripting.

Should I register just to make the feature suggestions of the things you’ve admitted in this thread that it can not do but the Matrix can just to prove you wrong? Although I would place bets that there have been feature suggestions made to improve it made by other people! How do you manage to survive life with such a blinkered view on the world?!!

As has been previously mentioned in this thread the Renoise pattern paradigm is very different to that of the clips bin type approach of Buzz! For this reason that type of sequencer can never realistically be introduced into Renoise as a core program feature without changing almost everything around it! But the ability to script it exists and what you want, or very close to it, is something they have give you the ability to do for yourself.

Personally I’d hate to be forced to work the way the Buzz Sequencer forces you to. How does that make it perfect or better than the Matrix in anything but a SUBJECTIVE manner? I don’t work the same way as you! Therefore I can tell you how to work the way you do within Renoise. There are different workflows, favoured by different people, with different tools designed which suit each and every. This does not make any superior to the other! Same as there is no BEST DAW, only people’s personal favourites!

this is unbelievable. this thread is in a devil’s circle loop. a few posts of meaningful stuff, followed by constant trolling.

we went from trying to figure out how to script BSE with LUA, back to berating the pattern matrix.
here we are again.

let me be very clear:
i LIKE the aspects of this thread when they are about re-creating BSE with LUA scripting.
i absolutely fucking want to punch head through a monitor when i read the endless “this is better than this why dontcha see why dontcha see” followed by “nothing is better than anything else but some are nicer to use and uhh stuff”.
the key detail about wanting to punch head through a monitor is that i want to travel to all of youz places and punch youz heads through youz monitors and that goes for everyone who keeps constantly shitstirring on this thread and bringing it back to “fuck you for not showing me how to” “fuck you for demanding that” -frequency level.

@XG2003 : any particular reason you want to make something yourself, Grid Pie doesn’t come close enough?

Let me just guess: keyboard shortcuts. This is do-able, and should not be too hard to add, even for an inexperienced scripter.

Also: have you discovered that Grid Pie has a bigger brother (the Duplex port)? - check it out here.
It comes with live recording, and is basically more “integrated” into Renoise. No keyboard shortcuts though, Duplex is primarily aimed towards hardware controllers.

I can also close this topic if there are no further good ideas left to add to this topic.

I mean adding ideas and giving constructive critics on them is fine, but they don’t need to end up in a flame war.

Point to make here is that the Pattern Matrix was never meant as a full arranger and that the idea for a full arranger/clip player is still a backstage debate itself.
Is that good enough for ending the endless discussion until something arranger wise pops up in one of the future beta rounds?
Because Beta time is always the best time to provide that specific input on features that have been added and if they feel natural and logic or what can be improved.

You are welcome to register and make suggestions, nobody will get paranoid about them. I can’t remember anybody suggesting many changes to the BSE over the lifetime of Buzz, Oskari made a few improvements to it (I think one was the ability to use ‘Insert’ and ‘Delete’ to move patterns up and down).

Haven’t you been reading my last few posts? I’ve explained what I think can be done, Grid Pie proves that it should be possible, and nobody will be FORCED to use it IF it is ever implemented.

Please post up a video to help me get used to using the pattern matrix as it is then!

I HATE being forced to use the pattern matrix - what is your solution to that? Keep using Buzz, which only has about 10% of the power of Renoise?

Thanks very much for that, danoise, I will have a look. I will investigate Lua scripting and see if I can learn it, but I’m not a programmer.

Mods - please don’t close this thread, that’s exactly what certain people want - no more discussion about improvements.

maybe I’m just an optimist at heart but I like the sound of that a lot!!! :drummer:

when’s that?

Beta mentioned in thread. :guitar: :P

Okay, now I’m completely convinced this guy has to be trolling. I’ve never met anyone so crazy to think their opinions are somehow facts.

I don’t think buzz is superior, but the pattern editor is a lot more musical imo.

Music compositions tend to have processes occurring simultaneously on multiple timescales, having everything on an N row timescale is not ideal. Do people get around this and make great music in renoise? Sure. I also don’t know how to reconcile the all-visible track view in renoise with variable length patterns.

The point still stands that variable length patterns is a more general and natural representation in pretty much any style of music that I can think of.


Thanks again KMaki, for your information about Lua scripting, having looked at the Grid Pie script, I see this code:

if rns.patterns[last_pattern].name ~= “GRID_PIE” then
– Create new pattern
local new_pattern = rns.sequencer:insert_new_pattern_at(total_sequence + 1)
rns.patterns[new_pattern].name = “GRID_PIE
GRIDPIE_IDX = new_pattern
total_sequence = total_sequence + 1

I presume this is the part that creates the new pattern at the bottom of your Renoise song. It looks like it is definitely possible to create a BSE in Renoise using Lua scripting, as I know nothing about programming I may be completely hopeless at doing it, but I’ll try to learn, and I’ll ask on the forum when I get stuck (not IF!).

If I (or more likely somebody else) were able to produce a BSE using Lua scripting, can that be implemented into the Renoise code IF that’s what the developers want? (In order to save them coding it from scratch.)

Personally I just want the OPTION to use a BSE, as long as a BSE tool is available that I and others can install, if we want to, what happens with the pattern matrix is of no interest to me. I am really impressed by the tools that are available for Renoise, they put it on a whole new level.

it can be released as a tool.
this will be enough.

Sorry to snap you out of your pink cloud, but I was just giving an argument there, not a statement.

Can anybody tell me how I would change track 1 in the first pattern to something else, in the following example, without changing all the aliases? It appears that the aliases are tied to pattern zero in this case, how do you get around this?

(If was doing this in Buzz, I’d just Ctrl-Shift-Enter when in the pattern editor for track 1, which would create a copy of the pattern, then I’d press Enter to go back to the BSE, then type ‘1’ ‘1’ ‘1’ down the page, leaving the first pattern as ‘0’, and then edit the ‘0’ pattern by pressing Enter).

Let the matrix cursor be at pattern 0 (track 1).

Go to next pattern, unalias it:

arrowdown ctrl+U

Go to next pattern, select the next blocks:

arrowdown shift+arrowdown

Change the selected blocks to be aliases of 1:

ctrl+P 1 enter

Go to pattern 0, edit:

pageup esc

I’m not a keys-only-user, I use the mouse for some of this, and also I don’t use aliases a lot.
But this is what I came up with in a couple of minutes. I guess those are standard keybindings. HTH.

Just noticed you seem to click to create each aliased block. No need to do this, simply drag down.

You and I, kinda posted at the same time, so I read this… after I did a quick edit… I just wanted to add that, I found a very quick way its like, “two steps.”

un-alias, cut/paste, use = “convert notes in track” tool.

I guess its not, “as sexy as buzz,” or whatever…

Thanks very much for your help, 2dazej, can you tell me exactly what keys to use for your method, as I’m not very used to Renoise’s shortcut keys, and I wasn’t quite sure what you meant exactly (f+d+k’s method worked perfectly for me though).