Buzz Sequence Editor Vs Renoise

Help, Support & Bugs
121

Have you used Buzz? If not, I will explain - the playback would not be from the Renoise sequencer, in the lower diagram below, the BSE would pull Track 1 from pattern 1, and play that, then pull Track 1 from pattern 1, and Track 2 from pattern 2, and play them both together.
If you pressed ‘Enter’ while your cursor was on the Pads ‘01’ block, you would see Pattern 1, (which would only have data in Track 1) and could edit it.

It’s very easy to understand once you’ve tried Buzz.

Let’s say I write four patterns of drums. The first pattern would be Pattern 1, and would only have data in the drums track of that pattern. I can put it in the BSE by typing ‘0’ and duplicate it three times. I could then make a second pattern, which would appear in Pattern 2, again with data in only the drum track of that pattern, and I could enter that in the BSE by typing ‘1’. I could rename these patterns to anything I wanted, so that if I pressed ‘0’ the drum clip in the BSE would say “DrumsStart”, and if I pressed ‘1’ it could say “DrumsFill”, etc. I can then write two more patterns of drums, which I would add to the BSE by pressing ‘2’ and ‘3’.
So say I am listening to my song and I think “I want the drum ‘fill’ at this point, not the ‘DrumsStart’ pattern”, I just type ‘1’ and immediately it’s there. I don’t need to search, like when using the Pattern Matrix, to find where I used the drum fill, i.e. which position in the arranger I first created it, so that I can alias it.

That way I have a much easier to follow arranger - I can call every track’s pattern whatever I want to call it.

Just try Buzz and you’ll see how easy it is.

122

I know how buzz sequencer works, I’ve used it. It’s been a while, but I understand the basics. I just cannot grasp how this could be realized as a renoise lua-scripted tool, without it being overly complicated. Then again, I might be thinking things way too complicated. :)

Are you perhaps envisioning something like the grid pie tool?

123

I think it would be something like grid pie, I haven’t tried it yet.

I presume nobody records two tracks at the same time in a pattern, so you would just write one track as usual, and then Renoise would automatically create new patterns as you created new tracks, each pattern having only one track with data in it. You wouldn’t see all the tracks displayed as they are now, you would just seen one track at a time, depending on which pattern you had selected in the BSE.

Say you had
Track 1 - Pads Track 2 - Drums Track 3 - Bass Track 4 - Lead

and each track had four patterns.

As you created the patterns for each track, Renoise would create a new pattern, so it would be

Pattern 1
Track 1 - pads00

Pattern 2
Track 1 pads01

Pattern 3
Track 2 drums00

Pattern 4
Track 2 drums01

etc. You wouldn’t see the patterns as they are normally displayed, you would just see the data for one track (but could switch to view all the tracks in that pattern if you wanted to, but as all the other tracks would be empty, there would be point).

In other words, nothing has to change about the current Renoise track data, nor how it’s stored. If you were to view the Renoise file with the BSE turned off, you would just see a lot of patterns, each with only one track with data in.

When you entered a ‘sequence’ number into the BSE (here a ‘sequence’ is a pattern for one particular track), Renoise would copy the data from that particular pattern into a temp pattern, and then if you had second sequence number in the BSE in the next track (see my picture above), it would copy the data for that tracks from the pattern, into the same temp pattern, as shown in my picture. And that would be it - as far as the user was concerned, it would be playing several tracks at once, but in reality the patterns for each track would be separate.

It seems very simple to me, what do you think?

124

GRID PIE proves it can be done! It does exactly what I am talking about! (Not all of what the Buzz Sequence Editor does, but it pulls tracks from selected patterns and puts them into a ‘temp’ current pattern!)

Thanks for suggesting it, KMaki, it proves that what I’m talking about should be possible!

Edit:
Having played around with the wonderful Grid Pie for a few minutes, I now see that the patterns that Renoise stores (but doesn’t show you) wouldn’t have to have only one track with data in, it could just add data to each track as you created new patterns for new tracks.

So if I started off with

Pattern 1
Track 1 - Pads
DATA
DATA
DATA

and then created a drum track, in track 2, it would just add that to pattern 1, track 2

Pattern 1
Track 1 - Pads Track 2 - Drums
DATA -------------DATA
DATA -------------DATA
DATA -------------DATA

and then using whatever method Grid Pie uses, it would pull out whatever tracks you wanted from whatever pattern. It would store the BSE track and pattern name somewhere in the Renoise pattern, so that it would know to look in ‘Pattern 1 - Track 2’ for the ‘Drums00’ data. (Presuming you named the first drum track ‘Drums00’.)

Does all that make sense? This is looking really promising, I’m really impressed with Grid Pie, I’m going to try to knock up a video demo of it.

(On a side note, why does the forum hide multiple spaces? When I typed in
DATA -------------DATA
DATA -------------DATA
DATA -------------DATA
but used spaces instead of dashes, it displayed as

DATA DATA
DATA DATA
DATA DATA

but when I went to edit it, the spaces were still there, and it still displayed correctly in the edit box!)

125

Yeah, I now see what you’re aiming for with the tool! I was hung up on having the BSE generated sequence in the renoise sequencer. But when you think of it, it’s maybe not so important. Maybe. I still think there can be some consequences that are hard to foresee before trying the thing out. Hope someone scrapes up a prototype, would be eager to try it out!

126

well, this too can be controlled by scripting, clicking on an icon or by shortcuts.

127

I would still very much like to see a alternate pattern sequence lane or something, so I can edit my pads and leads without merging them into an unwieldy single pattern. :)

128

Having used Grid Pie and seen how near it is to doing what the Buzz Sequence Editor does, I am confused as to why the Renoise team would go to all the effort of designing and programming the Pattern Matrix, when presumably Grid Pie’s code is simpler, and the BSE is a much better way of doing things. (Yes, I know, I know, the Pattern Matrix is just wonderful apparently, but nobody can even produce a video showing them doing the same sort of things as I do in Buzz with it).
Grid Pie is only 6KB as well.
Is there a way I can view the Lua script in Grid Pie? I know nothing about programming but I’d like to learn, and this would be an ideal way for me to pick it up, seeing as I would love to produce a BSE for renoise.

ps thanks Esaruoho for that information, I didn’t know you could do that already.

129

Here’s a getting started post in the scripting subforum.

You’ll find most of the info behind the link in the linked post, though, including how to enable the scripting terminal/editor in renoise. I’d say this is probably how you would want to view the tool script(s?). If you just want to browse the tool files with a text editor, rename the gridpie.xrnx into gridpie.zip and extract. The xrnx files are just zips in disguise.

130

That is purely a matter of subjective opinion and I have already given you a multitude of reasons why I personally think it is not!

131

Yes it is a subjective matter and indeed there is no ultimate “best way” of doing things because the best way for one person doesn’t necessarily work for someone else.

132

To avoid the crap-storm that hit the start part of this thread, I seriously wish that no claims of the superiority of either way of sequencing are made anymore. We all can see where that leads, and it’s obviously very non-productive.

There are polite ways of expressing such opinions, and those are much more likely to be taken under serious consideration by the recipients than full steam claims of obvious superiority.

I’m not defending anything but the possibility of this discussion to continue as far as possible without the descent towards the situation Godwin’s Law predicts.

I have spoken.

–Well: not all yet, so EDIT:
The assumption that grid pie is a ‘simpler program’ than the ‘pattern matrix’ is IMO completely flawed. It’s a script on top of a real application. I don’t think you can compare them side by side… But this is already probably beside the point.

133

You are welcome to post up a video of you using the Pattern Matrix, to show what you mean.
I am not advocating getting rid of the pattern matrix, the BSE would be an ALTERNATIVE to it.

I don’t agree that this is all subjective, clearly some user interfaces are easier to use, more productive, etc. than others.
If you had to type in ‘Go’ every time you wanted to move anything at all in the pattern matrix, would that be better, or worse than it is now? It’s clear that we can see if there are parts of a user interface which hinder the user. I tried to demonstrate this with my video, by asking pattern matrix users how they would achieve the same things. Those that replied with helpful posts (i.e. explaining exactly that - how they would edit the song in the same way I did in my video) showed that a lot more keypresses and mouse use are required when using the pattern matrix, than when using the BSE.
If there are things that the pattern matrix does that the BSE doesn’t, it may be possible to add them to the BSE too.

It’s only a user interface! The whole point of software is that it’s relatively easy to change something, unlike hardware interfaces.

As I said before, if the pattern matrix were easier, better, more comfortable, whatever, then I’m sure I would have a flood of videos showing me how to achieve the same things as I did in my video.

The tiny number of people who contributed negative comments about the BSE on this thread do not represent all Renoise users, yet they want to stop the BSE from even being discussed, or so it seems. I really don’t see the problem - you might as well ban all Renoise tools too, in case one of them ‘treads on somebody’s toes’ here, it’s ridiculous.

If the pattern matrix works for you, my claims that the BSE is better shouldn’t bother you in the slightest. Like I said, nobody is going to the Buzz forum and suggesting that Buzz should have a pattern matrix - why is that? Nobody has ever criticised the BSE, on a Buzz forum, to my knowledge - why is that? Because it was designed perfectly from the beginning, that’s why.

KMaki, thanks very much for the link, I’ll see if I have the brains and ability to learn Lua scripting.

134

Should I register just to make the feature suggestions of the things you’ve admitted in this thread that it can not do but the Matrix can just to prove you wrong? Although I would place bets that there have been feature suggestions made to improve it made by other people! How do you manage to survive life with such a blinkered view on the world?!!

As has been previously mentioned in this thread the Renoise pattern paradigm is very different to that of the clips bin type approach of Buzz! For this reason that type of sequencer can never realistically be introduced into Renoise as a core program feature without changing almost everything around it! But the ability to script it exists and what you want, or very close to it, is something they have give you the ability to do for yourself.

Personally I’d hate to be forced to work the way the Buzz Sequencer forces you to. How does that make it perfect or better than the Matrix in anything but a SUBJECTIVE manner? I don’t work the same way as you! Therefore I can tell you how to work the way you do within Renoise. There are different workflows, favoured by different people, with different tools designed which suit each and every. This does not make any superior to the other! Same as there is no BEST DAW, only people’s personal favourites!

135

this is unbelievable. this thread is in a devil’s circle loop. a few posts of meaningful stuff, followed by constant trolling.

we went from trying to figure out how to script BSE with LUA, back to berating the pattern matrix.
here we are again.
…

let me be very clear:
i LIKE the aspects of this thread when they are about re-creating BSE with LUA scripting.
i absolutely fucking want to punch head through a monitor when i read the endless “this is better than this why dontcha see why dontcha see” followed by “nothing is better than anything else but some are nicer to use and uhh stuff”.
the key detail about wanting to punch head through a monitor is that i want to travel to all of youz places and punch youz heads through youz monitors and that goes for everyone who keeps constantly shitstirring on this thread and bringing it back to “fuck you for not showing me how to” “fuck you for demanding that” -frequency level.

136

@XG2003 : any particular reason you want to make something yourself, Grid Pie doesn’t come close enough?

Let me just guess: keyboard shortcuts. This is do-able, and should not be too hard to add, even for an inexperienced scripter.

Also: have you discovered that Grid Pie has a bigger brother (the Duplex port)? - check it out here.
It comes with live recording, and is basically more “integrated” into Renoise. No keyboard shortcuts though, Duplex is primarily aimed towards hardware controllers.

137

I can also close this topic if there are no further good ideas left to add to this topic.

I mean adding ideas and giving constructive critics on them is fine, but they don’t need to end up in a flame war.

Point to make here is that the Pattern Matrix was never meant as a full arranger and that the idea for a full arranger/clip player is still a backstage debate itself.
Is that good enough for ending the endless discussion until something arranger wise pops up in one of the future beta rounds?
Because Beta time is always the best time to provide that specific input on features that have been added and if they feel natural and logic or what can be improved.

138

You are welcome to register and make suggestions, nobody will get paranoid about them. I can’t remember anybody suggesting many changes to the BSE over the lifetime of Buzz, Oskari made a few improvements to it (I think one was the ability to use ‘Insert’ and ‘Delete’ to move patterns up and down).

Haven’t you been reading my last few posts? I’ve explained what I think can be done, Grid Pie proves that it should be possible, and nobody will be FORCED to use it IF it is ever implemented.

Please post up a video to help me get used to using the pattern matrix as it is then!

I HATE being forced to use the pattern matrix - what is your solution to that? Keep using Buzz, which only has about 10% of the power of Renoise?

Thanks very much for that, danoise, I will have a look. I will investigate Lua scripting and see if I can learn it, but I’m not a programmer.

Mods - please don’t close this thread, that’s exactly what certain people want - no more discussion about improvements.

139

maybe I’m just an optimist at heart but I like the sound of that a lot!!! :drummer:

140

when’s that?