proper intstrument view, good layout, enhanced envelopes , syncing to tempo / rows instead of ticks and many more,
would be really nice to have, i can’t help it but renoise in it’s current stage feels just well… broken
as if it was just work in progress…
i know we’ve been through this before, just thought i’ll mention it again, so it doesn’t feel like everything is ok now… it’s not !
sorry for my tone, i’m just frustrated with renoise atm
It depends on the point of view of course, I think feature wise renoise is probably better than it was in 2.6, but I find instrument section to be crutial
in the aspect of trackers having advantage to regular sequencers.
it feels like the “multi instrument” is taking more “space” than actual work on an individual sample / sound…
personally I only use multisample instruments for drums and i feel that it’s pain in the ass with the changed layout in 2.7
I agree with the features added in 2.7 , i just find it’s execution to be unlucky one. Taktik is my hero don’t take me wrong…
i wonder who is really creating multi instruments (other than drums) though, are you guys really recording your piano/guitar whatever in home conditions ?
are you using it for resampling vstis ? - if so , alright but this is done automatically…
well, it kinda… is… that. a work in progress. i mean, if it wasn’t, why would the devs be programming at all anymore?
don’t get me wrong, i can see what you mean. quite a big chunk of new stuff has been introduced with the 2.7 release, with the sample slices and the keyzone editor, and then they also went and moved the sample list and instrument envelopes and everything. and there has, as you said yourself, already been lots of talk about this, the fact that the new features are not implemented as rock-solid as they could/should be.
when i read your words my first thought was that you spoke out of a bad mood. luckily you have kept me from having to guess as you already affirmed your frustration yourself.
you probably just need to chill out and relax a bit about this to allow yourself to see these hurdles as challenges/opportunities instead of, well, damn frustrating half-working hurdles.
the stance i take when confronting some of these new features is: curiosity, research, and then maybe adopting or maybe ignoring them. in practice i have not yet made proper use of the keyzone editor or the sample slicer at all. the thing i have probably been happiest about is the fact that you can now set ‘Autoseek’ for all selected samples without the use of a tool. so that is pretty small compared to all the stuff that changed with 2.7
personally, the features i used to use are still there, the little things that changed in those features i have learned to live with and/or work around, and i just ignore the stuff i am not ready for yet. all in all, i have been able to pretty much keep my old workflow. would it not be possible for you to do the same thing? and then we can all hold hands and gaze into the sunset as we eagerly await the immanent improvement of all the stuff that got you so frustrated, in Renoise versions to come!
yes of course, I agree with you and I also usually try to take limitations as challanges, but frustrating thing here is, that something that was working well is not working so well anymore, ( not technically, workflow wise )
an example would be - renoise was not really built for signal routing and side chaining was “not possible” but we managed to find some solution for that, now we can do it easily, but if it was the other way around it would be annoying…
I was used to “call” instrument section of renoise via F4 and i was working on it straight away, the envelopes were ok to edit - what did change now workflow wise, is that envelopes are “not that important” anymore
and i don’t like that decision, instead I would prefer advancing with them - so that you could use individual envelopes on individual samples , to have master control over the all samples within the instrument,
to be able to assign more parameters to the envelopes - it would be great to be able to use VST parameters to be assignable here for example (but i know it’s a problem with automation)
instrument section could be more merged with VSTis serving as a meta device for controlling individual parameters,
it would be great if you could set a “mask” for VSTi in instruments, where you would filter out what controls from the VSTi you would like to control there etc
instruments could be one of the best tools for controlling “sound sources” in renoise, and instead instrument section feels like a lost column of “instrument setting” which is totally not intuitive imo.
especially combined with Instruments being in top right corner and the “rest” down in the small insignificant row. (samples within instrument are now on the other end of the screen … )
i know it’s easy to dismiss what i’m saying because i am not “politically correct” but i think lots of these are valid points and i really just want to help … ( to myself at least )
it feels like renoise is reaching new horizons now, lots of things we requested are here and that is great, but maybe we’re approaching to new level now, and we should find a way how to find place for everything that was added
while not ruining what was good about the whole concept in the begining, renoise def needs to be more dynamic in some way ( colors / adjustable windows or workspaces)
renoise is now kind of devided in 3 sections
upper browser / scopes / spectrum etc
mid - actual sequence, sample editing etc,
low , (envelopes, track dsp etc)
but for example automation would be great to have in the mid section as well, probably with a preview of a tracker sequence in place of arranger ( so that you can see the track you are working on )
the lower section is definitely too small for a comfortable use , wheter it is automation, envelopes or even browsing plugins… ( “more” won’t help you if you can’t drag & drop plugins to dsp chain )
i think every aspect of renoise should be “movable” to mid section in case you decide to work on it in detail, and you should be able to use other sections for previewing other elements
perhaps we’ll see all of this in renoise 3.0 the thing is, i’m quite excited about renoise in general, and i can see it being even better in future and i’m looking forward to it, but at present it makes me go #$^#&*%#^!! sometimes
I have actually seen that exact sentiment from more than one established artist on a fairly big (for the underground electronic music scene at least) label. Although in some ways I agree I think the steps forwards do outweigh any of the ones backwards but can 100% understand how breaking somebody’s workflow in critical areas can cause them to stop wanting to make music with a piece of software!
This they have pretty much promised is planned at some point in the future, in an upcoming Instrument update (this is only the first round.) As such an oft requested feature I would be surprised to not see it fairly soon. (Hopefully with an advanced envelope editor too )
This too really surprised me and I do not see the logic in moving it away from the instrument/disk-op pane in the slightest! A few of us did try and persuade them to move it back in the Beta but it just wasn’t going to happen.
Sorry to say to agree with you. There was a good overview/workflow in this area.
I love the new features but the logic in development is gone in 2.7.
2.7 seems to be the only mistake in development of renoise if looking at previous updates.
And this seems only to be the case because of the change of the instrumentbox and placing of the
instrument envelopes. I rather would like to say the old situation in 2.8 or whatever.
*Overview of all the samples in the old instrumentbox was great.
*The buttons for cut & paste etc were great.
*The envelopes were there at a single click in a dedicated tab , not put away somewhere.That you have first to hit
a expand button to work a envelope is even more annoying.
Taktik and the team are great, they convinced me to start messing with software for music making but renoise 2.7 instrument box/enevelopes feel like a huge step back that is a big pain in the ass.
2.6 instrument layout + all the new features is still a wet dream to me but I guess this will never happen which makes me sad sometimes when working on a beat. It feels it takes me longer to do some things but I can’t live without the slicer in my sample based production. This why I am in a constant battle with myself which version to use, even now I se 2.7 since the beta’s.
I don’t know why the new multilayer thing should feel as a pain in the as for just constructing a percussion kit?
Nothing much has changed in how one could quickly do it as a matter of fact, things on this area even has improved (ability to generate drumkits starting from different keys, using only white or black keys). Simply drag samples or zones from one key to another.
You don’t have to work with multiple layers and velocities if you don’t want to…
But yeah, if you do want multiple layers, it means you have to put in some effort, but this goes for a lot of things in life:all nice the stuff requires effort to accomplish.
Why do you think lot of samplelibrary manufacturers charge you hundreds of bucks for a good sample library?
as I said, I never said multilayer instruments are bad as an idea, I said it’s execution is not that great.
If I could see those manufacturers create Renoise instruments I would be filled with joy and happiness … but renoise being a small player I don’t see that coming any time soon. (unfortunately)
which means it will be up to community in the end, and that is why I put rhetorical question - who will really create proper multi instruments for renoise ?
about the slicing - as it is now, i don’t find it that usefull - the problem is, that you generate kind of “meta slices” they are not actual cut audio that you can process further,
and often i really need to, at least changing the decay of the individual hits of samples, if I could slice the break with renoise and then “render it as instrument” or something,
where it would actually create mapped and cut instrument based on the previous meta samples then it would be a great tool for me… however slow it may be, I still prefer to cut breaks
manually until this change will happen.
and still - the problem I mentioned and others confirmed is the problematic layout of instruments now
Yep, I fully agree on that the slicer as it is, is unusable. I haven’t used it once after I tested it. The time saving that it can do auto-slicing isn’t a big enough of an advantage on the things you can’t do anymore.
Other than that, I believe the instrument editor is going the right way. The moment we have assignable lfo/envelope for each individual slot (and for “grouped” slots) it will be quite awesome. I’m pretty confident.
Workflow is mostly about getting used to the tool.
For each goal you want to reach, you need a defined worktime. I’m going to tell you what happens when coders try to code “too fast” and provide too early releases : their code has more bugs than expected ; and then the beta-phase is also longer than expected, and in the end, the “early release” was just an illusion, you’ve got to wait and wait, each bug has to be fixed one after the other, before the “final stable release”. The renoise instruments system needs improvements for sure, but concerning all this, I know that it requires a defined time, so it’s done “when it’s done”.
i hate it when people are ‘politically correct’, which just translates to ‘dishonest’. so i’m glad you’re not being that. i understand your frustration to a certain extent, but i am not signed to any record label of any kind, and 2.7 did not break my workflow (hey, makes me think of those Reefer Madness vids, ‘Renoise 2.7 broke my workflow!’, ‘Renoise 2.7 seduced my wife!’, ‘Renoise 2.7 perverted the minds of our children!’
you are indeed making lots of valid points. in fact, i don’t think i saw a single point made there that hasn’t been suggested before already, which goes to show that you are not alone in this. personally i don’t really understand some of these design decisions either, but in the end In Taktik We Trust
2.7 got me excited with quite tiny features, like the batch sample properties i mentioned before, or the new drumkit options mentioned by vV. been following all discussion around the forums enough to see each change to instruments as a precursor to the mythical ‘xrni overhaul’.
It has nothing to do with labels or anything connected with that, renoise is definitely not the only tool to make music with and I am fully aware of it, the fact that I had some music released didn’t change my view on
tracking or renoise, what I wrote I wrote genuinly as just a renoise user that is on the board for more than 6 years…