Renoise 3 speculation thread

[td6d]

Paulstretch (IMPLEMENT PAULSTRETCH AND GIVE HIM A FEW BUCKS FOR EVERY SALE!!)… Best free piece of software together with flicflac imo.

[Cas]

Sorry Hardcore Tracker Dudes, I guess I just got a little mad at nonsense statements like the following…

@Dylan G

Gaybleton is for grannies

Man you really gotta be up into some serious petty crime stuff constructing sentences like that.

@Dylan G

Well, that camp may not be a loss per se.

Haha you are alright man. I for one definitely like the idea of more ‘live’ possibility with renoise though, although I’m mainly more a producer than a DJ/livePA…

[delt]

79.1% of grannies interviewed have never heard of gaybleton.

[td6d]

@delt

79.1% of grannies interviewed have never heard of gaybleton.

…other 20.9% answered ‘wimbledonn?? ohhh yes, I like to watch sports sometimes’…

[vvoois (vV)]

@delt

79.1% of grannies interviewed have never heard of gaybleton.

What, your granny uses gableton? I didn’t knew that… Cool!

[Conner_Bw]

CLICK ME!

[oneunkind]

@2 daze j

Absolutely, you nailed it.

except he meant sonic foundry acid but accidentally said ableton.

[Carbonthief]

@Conner_Bw

CLICK ME!

OKAY

[Moxon (Nicolai)]

@Carbonthief

OKAY

Stack overflow …

After all that talk, I am looking forward to the next version of Renoise. Although - as many have stated before - I am in the class of users who still haven’t fully discovered / unlocked the potential of Renoise 2.8. So no rush, but still I like christmas happening early:)

[2_daze_j (Jonathan)]

@oneunkind

except he meant sonic foundry acid but accidentally said ableton. />

lol…

I’ll tell you where Ableton looses to everything, and looses pretty bad. Its a huge debate, and it has people who vehemently agree and by the same token disagree: Ableton’s audio engine, has a strange behavior. It adds a very dark mud to the music. I call it, “the color gray.” Everything that comes out of Ableton sounds very gray to me. Look on the Ableton forums and you will find, “at least 10 years worth,” of threads about this subject.

Cheers

[thalamus]

@2 daze j

lol…

I’ll tell you where Ableton looses to everything, and looses pretty bad. Its a huge debate, and it has people who vehemently agree and by the same token disagree: Ableton’s audio engine, has a strange behavior. It adds a very dark mud to the music. I call it, “the color gray.” Everything that comes out of Ableton sounds very gray to me. Look on the Ableton forums and you will find, “at least 10 years worth,” of threads about this subject.

Cheers

/>/>/>/>

I think it’s a myth. It strikes me that it’s more about how the DAW makes you feel, how you react to it and by extension what you produce with it. Ableton Live potentially makes creating dull music very, very easy. As did Acid and any other mainstream tool that allows you to get some quite big tasks done in seconds.
I’m all for easing workflows naturally, but with this power comes some responsibility. If you want to make interesting sounds then it needs work - but with Live it’s quite easy to just throw down tons of loops and render out. Bang. The thought processes applied to the evolution of the track were minimal… that sounds okay with that, click, and those, and all of that … click click done.

But when you work with sound and think very carefully about every step and ‘feel’ the interactions and contexts between elements starting to form in your own mental construct of the whole, then you begin to understand the music. And in understanding comes the ability to innovate, move direction, add counterpoint and all kinds of adornments that support (not just add to) the rest of the framework. It’s called being an artist rather than simply scribbling mindlessly.

I think this has more to do with the perception of how a DAW sounds. Personally I’ve made lots of tests between various audio engines and all the main contenders out there sound just fine. Cubase sounds like Live. It does. It’s only when you start adding plugs, making EQ decisions and going down ‘easy pathways’ that the functionality of the DAW suggest for you, that a more delineated character starts to form.

[ostrogoth (diigitae)]

@thalamus

I think it’s a myth. It strikes me that it’s more about how the DAW makes you feel, how you react to it and by extension what you produce with it. Ableton Live potentially makes creating dull music very, very easy. As did Acid and any other mainstream tool that allows you to get some quite big tasks done in seconds.
I’m all for easing workflows naturally, but with this power comes some responsibility. If you want to make interesting sounds then it needs work - but with Live it’s quite easy to just throw down tons of loops and render out. Bang. The thought processes applied to the evolution of the track were minimal… that sounds okay with that, click, and those, and all of that … click click done.

But when you work with sound and think very carefully about every step and ‘feel’ the interactions and contexts between elements starting to form in your own mental construct of the whole, then you begin to understand the music. And in understanding comes the ability to innovate, move direction, add counterpoint and all kinds of adornments that support (not just add to) the rest of the framework. It’s called being an artist rather than simply scribbling mindlessly.

I think this has more to do with the perception of how a DAW sounds. Personally I’ve made lots of tests between various audio engines and all the main contenders out there sound just fine. Cubase sounds like Live. It does. It’s only when you start adding plugs, making EQ decisions and going down ‘easy pathways’ that the functionality of the DAW suggest for you, that a more delineated character starts to form.

i’m agree with you

[xrxs]

[Name_User]

Granular granular granular granular, forget time stretching we need internal granular SOMETHING with like multiple “playheads” that can be individually manipulated and morphed between eachother with various settings for their interaction and automation.

[Name_User]

@2 daze j

lol…

I’ll tell you where Ableton looses to everything, and looses pretty bad. Its a huge debate, and it has people who vehemently agree and by the same token disagree: Ableton’s audio engine, has a strange behavior. It adds a very dark mud to the music. I call it, “the color gray.” Everything that comes out of Ableton sounds very gray to me. Look on the Ableton forums and you will find, “at least 10 years worth,” of threads about this subject.

Cheers

/>/>/>

Ableton sounds like piss because of the plugin delay compensation, Cytomic Andy basically agrees with me on this though I tend to phrase it a little more aggressively since I don’t work for them. People who don’t use the FX rack are so fucking boring that they never run into this problem, their tracks are garbage because they don’t even try.

Take a kickdrum, split it into two paths on FX rack:
add nothing to one path, add a basic EQ to the other and don’t even take the time to attenuate anything, just flat:

Enjoy your DOOF turning into a ZOOTH then add more effects and more complexity to the chain and your transients get wrecked more and more so your DOOF keeps going into a BLURPH then GORF then THUD then PFFF and so on. You can add artificial sharpness to it later but it’ll never be the same, the process just turns shit to mud the further you go into it, at one point you just get KSHHHH HIGH FREQUENCY CONTENT followed by BLUURP LOW FREQUENCY CONTENT and that’s that, no character no texture just digital piss, and this is coming from someone who swears that analog processing is irrelevant horseshit.

It’s all shit.

In a thread where I was talkin shit about Ableton:

andy_cytomic - Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:37 pm
I’m glad I’m not the only one that worries about sample accuracy!

There are issues with Live 8’s lack of alignment of automation and song position information to plugins which I want fixed as much as everyone else here, but there is another issue which is not very well understood, and more general that applies to all DAW users.

There is something called a “two path polyphase IIR filter” as outlined in the paper “The Design of Arbitrary-Band Multi-Path Polyphase IIR Filters” by Dr Artur Krukowski and Dr Izzet Kale, which is commonly used for oversampling. It’s used in Live 8’s EQ 8 in HQ mode and it’s used by loads of people in the audio industry since it’s low cpu and has a very steep filter rolloff. So what’s the down side? In DSP there is always a tradeoff, it’s this case it’s the non-linear phase response. This will delay your incoming signal by somewhere from 2.x samples to 4.x samples (depending on the steepness of the design) at DC that with frequency in a non-linear way.

Ok, so what does that mean? This means if one of these polyphase IIR oversampling filters is in your signal path that you have a fractional (sub-sample) delay unit processing your entire signal, and the fraction of a sample it delays your signal increases with frequency, so there is absolutely no way you can compensate for this, other than to run ALL your other tracks through the same filter to delay them by the same amount. But hang on, it’s not that easy, since if you chain three plugins, each which uses their own design of an IIR polyphase oversampling filter, then you need to reconstruct the exact same “clean” version by passing all your other audio tracks through exactly the same total chain, but without doing any processing on the signal. That is just to align two tracks together. Have different plugin chains on different tracks and it becomes impossible to correct for.

I repeat, this issue is not the sole problem of Live 8’s oversampling as used in the EQ8 HQ mode, it’s everywhere and it’s an issue in all DAWS - but many developers keep quiet about using it since the polyphase IIR solution is cheaper in cpu and does a really good job if you don’t care about your phase going out of whack with other tracks. You basically have to verify this yourself by putting a single sample spike through a plugin and see what it looks like once it’s processed since developers can’t even declare the delay to a host since each frequency has it’s own fractional delay and hosts only take a single integer as the delay to compensate (which is fine, that should be enough!)

There is a solution, and that is to use linear phase FIR oversampling filters. Ok so what’s the tradeoff for this fix? Slightly more cpu usage and more latency, but this time the latency is constant and can be corrected for by the phase so the crack of your transients all stay put and don’t turn into limp plops when they phase with other parts of your track.

So in summary the polyphase IIR oversamplers do a really good job for the amount of cpu they use, and they introduce minimal latency into the signal path, but the latency they do introduce is non-linear and can’t be corrected for easily, and so can cause phase issues. The FIR alternative uses more cpu and latency, but the latency is constant and can be corrected for. So either way it’s a bummer.

A much better solution is to run your entire project at 88.2 khz or 96 khz, then you don’t need to oversample in individual plugins, and all your EQ shapes are very analog like in shape and phase, and your aliasing is reduced across the board so all your mixes are clearer and tighter. If the oversampling can be bypassed in your plugins (which I allow in mine by not all developers support) then there is no extra latency introduced so nothing needs correcting for. The cost here is increased CPU usage across the board as well, with every single plugin taking twice as much cpu.

$800

EIGHT

HUNDRED

DOLLARS

[Name_User]

did i mention i fucking hate daws

renoise is like a locost 7, a shed built caterham clone that can fuck a motherfucker up, any lamborghini any whatever on a mountain road, middle fingers up in a cloud of smoke sideways not giving a fuck

crude, primitive just a motor and the driver, no air conditioned perforated leather for the asscheeks, nothing but intuitive precise control, just smashing shit left and right cause its an extension of yourself

and yet here i am wishing for FX racks in renoise while simultaneously hoping the devs dont fuck it up like ableton did

[Name_User]

reason is a toyota sienna minivan with the dealer installed child safety package
cubase/nuendo is one of those short school buses converted to look like a limo with a fishtank and a bunch of useless tacky shit
fl studio is an M&Ms themed donk monte carlo, which is perfectly fine really
audiomulch is a solar powered unicycle
pro tools is like a late 90s jaguar, catastrophic build quality, all fake marble panel premium pretense bullshit built for geriatrics

[Name_User]

i dont even need to explain what model vw logic is (its a jetta, used to be a golf but who cares either way)
sonar is like a shitbox chevy lumina with a billion ham radio attachments and antennas sticking out of it with like UFO bumper stickers and shit
zynewave podium is a early 00s saab, maybe a 9-3 aero, looks fine and has about everything you need but good luck servicing that shit
energy xt is a geo tracker
buzz is a rusted out citroen with a junkyard alfa romeo engine and cadillac seats and who knows what else cobbled together from wherever
ableton is a prius, intriguing concept but uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Name_User]

presonus studio one is totally a mazda 3, looks about right, works about right, but where the fuck is the character
all ipad music apps are scooters, and they’re not even vespas they’re those shitty japanese scooters that look like running shoes
maschines, mpcs and especially that akai daw is either a steam powered horseless carriage or one of those train cars that are just a flat platform on wheels where you have to pump a lever up and down for it to move under manual labor and it can only go in one direction cause duh its on rails, stupid
ardour is some kinda third world kia 1.2 liter diesel or something

[Sense_Net]

OpenMPT is a Geo Tracker, refurbished with a new engine and even an iPod dock and some fuzzy dice hanging on the rear-view mirror. It has the old seats and the smell of years gone by, but it still gets you to the mall to scour for chicks and get a milkshake, like you did when you were 16. Eventually the mechanic will want to put rims on it and you’ll accept with a big grin.

@Name User

all ipad music apps are scooters, and they’re not even vespas they’re those shitty japanese scooters that look like running shoes

Hahaha. This gave me a funny image of when people tie a bunch of apps together in Audio Bus. A gang of googly-eyed glasses-wearing nerds on their scooters, backpacks full of figurines, soda and pretzels, buzzing through the suburbs to the game shop to play Warhammer 40k.