What Would You Like To See In A Renoise 3.0?

Ok, that’s great… but Renoise already has piano roll… its here: http://www.box.com/s/391ff7214864dcd7e7aa

There is a lot of stuff that would work for 3.0, but I feel really selfish, requesting the development team, to do so much work… so I’m just gonna, stfu, but… Renoise, Piano roll, its in the program already, imo

heee nope, your picture do not really show a piano roll, it only shows a “piano view”, that’s been added for an easier renoise sample-based instruments construction (it’s called the keyzone editor) ; in the editable zone on the top of it you can place multiple sub-samples for each instruments, that’s all.

A true pianoroll is theorically a place where you define notes with the mouse, with the help of a timeline. Those notes are not displayed with the C-4… B-8 notation. They are “visually” associated with a virtual piano view keyboard position. In other DAWs like Cubase for example you’ll find this kind of pianoroll note edition system, that works horizontally and that uses the mouse for notes edition.

The difference between the soundtracker philosophy and the pianoroll philosophy, is that in a tracker notes are entered vertically, with the qwerty keyboard and not really with the mouse ; a tracker is based on the usage of a qwerty keyboard and shortcuts. That’s an efficient way to work, but the learning curve is quite long for a traditionnal musician.

In a pianoroll editor, everything is horizontal, and entered with the mouse, vith a constant visual correaltion with a virtual piano view keyboard. It’s not that efficient, but the problem is that it’s easier to understand and the first steps with it look simpler because people want to use the mouse first. Everyone knows it.

For decades people thought users have to choose between vertical qwerty keyboard edition OR horizontal mouse-click edition, but if you want my opinion, it’s a wrong debate.

:o

yep

This is no piano roll, but just a keyboard layout. :)

You edited your post, so… lol… I am a traditional musician. I started playing guitar, long before I started music production… And frankly… Tracker makes more sense to me, than piano roll.

Every piece of music software has a learning curve… Vaz Modular, Tassman, Reaktor, Max, PD, Supercollider, Cubase, Ableton, Sonar, Rapture… But here is the funny thing… Every instrument has a learning curve… Guitar, Drums, Piano, Bass, Flute… Every instrument has a learning curve. But the thing is, “today, every person wants to open up a new software and be the best producer on planet earth, in 24 hours, with no practice.”

Right now, Renoise is unique… But we both have our opinions, but I do not think they will change. You want piano bar… I disagree. K, we leave it there.

But what I think, might be interesting, for version 3.0, is expanding the Renoise Instrument, into a Wavetable Synth/Sampler. We are not far from that already. It gives Renoise, “a native synth,” which is a feature request we have seen, and from a sampler point of view, you get killer capabilities.

You know… A mod matrix, multi stage eg envelopes… A way of handling the wavetables properly… something that takes the best ideas from NI Massive, and Cakewalk Rapture, and adds all those abilities to the Renoise instrument.

Here is the thread that inspired this idea to me http://forum.renoise.com/index.php?/topic/22302-tool-custom-wave-generator-28/

Also! I am not asking for this as a feature request. If it does not happen. Its ok. I am not going to cry over it… but I played with wave generator all night… Does not replace good vst synths yet…

Great idea though. Good for bass. Might do some pads… leads, arps… not so good.

Cheers all

You’re right, something is missing there. For now renoise can only “modulate” some parameters through the usage of (cross routings) meta devices. Using this system for a native synth emulation is somehow unnatural. And the LFO Meta device has an internal definition that isn’t high enough to allow us a richer native synth emulation. A modulation “matrix” would simplify all this.

I’d think, first of all Renoise is a sequencer. Then it’s a tracker. If Renoise was still stuck in the old tracker conventions, it would miss 80% of todays functionalities.

In the beginning of trackers there were two main reason, why they got that popular. They were memory efficient and also allowed idiots, that weren’t able to read notations and maybe even had no idea of music, to do music anyway. And before anyone feels offended now, I’ve been one of these idiots too. If Renoise would stick to that, it would still be a program for idiots only. To me it actually doesn’t look or feel like that anymore. It’s an evolved sequencer with a tracker interface, that also tries to attract serious and experienced musicians.

Do you really think, you can do things in Renoise within 10 hours, that take 80 hours in other DAWs? That’s maybe the case, if you’re not experienced with other DAWs. An experienced Cubase, FL or Ableton user would have a good laugh at this argument.

Well, that nice for you. None is intending to take you the tracker interface away. If you don’t like the piano-roll, then just don’t use it. Quite simple. :)

I actually haven’t read anyone saying, a piano-roll would be the most important thing. :)

Frankly, I don’t think that the Renoise devteam never planned to add an alternative edition mode like a pianoroll. I would even say, that taktik allready prepared the whole ground for it. If you don’t want to believe me maybe you should get a look into your Readme.txt file right in the Renoise installation directory.

extract :

#######################################################
################ Changes from Renoise 1.9.1 to 2.0.0
#######################################################
.
.
.
Renoise 2.0 features Precision, Timing and Plugin improvements
.
.
.

  • ready for the future: NoteDelays and LPB are the most important and necessary
    steps for upcoming big features like Zoomable Patterns, Piano Roll, more accuracy
    (timing wise) with FX automations, and so on.

If we’re talking about the future of renoise in this thread… let’s say it : renoise WILL have a pianoroll. That’s in the todo list. The only questions we should ask ourselves should not be if it has to be or not. The questions we should ask ourselves are : how should it look, and how should it work.

Why such a blinkered view? Why would people loose a lot of what they love to move to something else which they might find beneficial in only some circumstances? Nothing would ever be forcing you to even look at it!

And there is also stuff you can edit in a Piano Roll in seconds which is quite painful in a Tracker!

Example:
Imagine a long, 5 note chord. You decide you want to extend three of the notes by a few lines. Now you have no way of knowing which note in on which column until you go back up the pattern(s) to find the correct columns and then have to insert the lines between note on and note off in each of the notes. Which can get further complicated if using aftertouch (values in the velocity column with no note) as you’d have to then go back to the note off before inserting in the correct columns.
Can you really believe that is quicker than Ctrl+Click on the three bars you can instantly see are the correct notes and then dragging down the end slightly with the mouse?

Sure it is a mouse-centric workflow, rather than being keyboard-centric which is by far one of Renoise’s strongest points, but it can still allow some actions to be performed with far less hassle and give you instant access to viewing relationships which can be hard to see in a tracker view.

dude, why such a blinkered view? sometimes when i post something i would consider useful, you’re like “hey mang, only you would use it, dude, that’s just for your workflow, what’s the point, so fed up with this, why don’t you just get with the program” ?

so you think pianoroll and horizontal view would be useful, well, i would rather have more api functions and a pattern matrix that allows for multiple length track-clips while arranging a song. oh, and more api functions.

seriously tho, i do get bored of everyone going off about horizontal view being some sort of a magic solution for renoise.
i WOULDNT MIND being able to see what it would be like to track horizontally, with the cursor keys and inputting notes like that, i would love for Logic for instance to have full on keyboard / tracker-like features and functions. but Renoise is doing so well as a tracker, so why bother…

in my opinion, renoise as a VST would be a solution to this endless “hey why this no look like my fav daw? u lame” mess.

I think we can both very much agree on that one! :)

Nothing big like a piano roll or audio tracks, but these are a couple things I think would be nice

-More mouse wheel use, hover over faders and move with mouse wheel, hover over mixer tracks and use wheel to shuffle DSPs, use mouse wheel to adjust band width of EQ nodes in graphical view

-Display VST parameter CC’s in lower status bar or somewhere in the instrument panel when tweaked, maybe I’ve missed something but it seems like there’s no easy way currently to identify what CC’s correlate to what parameters aside from referencing the plugin manual, would make automating VSTs easier

This for sure.

Also, can we make hovering over (or perhaps highlighting) a pattern command in the pattern editor show what it’s doing in the status bar at the bottom?

For example:

DSP commands would show: “Set [effect] [parameter] to [value]”
Sample commands would show things like: “Retrigger [instrument] [sample] every [y] ticks with [x] volume factor”

All of the values would be filled in of course. This would be suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuper handy. I lose track of what parameters I’m changing with what commands all the time when I have a bunch of DSP effects automated via pattern commands.

Hey… I just had a thought… On the LFO Meta Device… The option to load wavetables, for a custom waveform.

cheers

:w00t:

You can allready convert 8 bit mono samples to automation points with this tool.

That’s amazing, but I don’t understand how you did that. And… :frowning: Renoised crashed on exit… Still, cool trick. I’d love to do stuff like that. But I confuse easily with this type of stuff. :frowning:

? I’ve reloaded the empty.xrns example, and tested it with renoise 2.8 on my system… it didn’t crashed on exit. Try to get a look in your Log.txt file.

Ok… So what am I looking for? I found the Microsoft events viewer, in the Control Panel B) But I can’t find anything that says Renoise in a log file.

heee no, renoise produces its own log file, there are sometimes some usefull informations in it